Cool Idea to Replace Upwelling With

My new idea for upwelling
Completely scrap the extra bolt aspect of it as this basically did nothing anyways as not hitting ef during damage was just less hps overall.
Keep the 4 extra second of Essence Font hot
But then add an effect where
Whenever you heal with gust of mist replicate 20% of it onto everyone with essence font hot
As its on gust heal this mean Essence Font’s hot other effect, procing gust a second time, would work with it making Essence Font’s feed back loop more intuitive and friendly. Plus it would give our caster mw more legs to stand on
(note i am not a caster mw but as blizzard doesn’t seem to be axing them we need to work together)

4 Likes

The class needs to be reworked across the board. I was looking over some of your stats, are you sure you are getting enough out of the monk class in order to be offering suggestions on how to make changes?

1 Like

I mean, you are barely scratching the surface in raids with your monk. As for Mythic +, you haven’t logged a lot of runs. So I am having a difficult time giving you any sort of creditability when you are commenting on something you seem to have very little vested time with.

I believe Magna goes by another name, more prominent in the MW community. He’s made countless contributions to the spec through his involvement on peak of serenity, and in his work on wow analyzer (including specs that are not monk). I believe this tier he is not playing monk in high end content.

Despite that, brainstorming is valuable regardless who it comes from. Especially when there are some spec identity issues.

3 Likes

In the words of Dwight Schrute, “Well that’s debatable…” but I can appreciate your ideas on the matter there good sir.

I run upwelling into every raid fight, and the extra bolts are great. At the cost of max possible hps output we gain extreme efficiency with essence font casts (a theme in mistweaver i particularly enjoy)- we get double the output by waiting an extra 1.5x the cooldown, and it gradually grows to that maximum the longer it’s off cooldown, so we can cash in on our bonus bolts right when we want them.

It’s like the benefit of getting a 2nd charge of any other CD so you can safely delay the cast until you need it without wasting cd time; except instead of extra button presses, you get the output stacked right into the next one at no additional mana cost

Mastery based output is something i definitely want to see more of, particularly in Revival. It’s a shame that mastery doesnt have any throughput bonus on our core throughput cd. Perhaps a “swirl of mists” on every revival target, at some % effectiveness of gust? prepping for major damage with full raid upwelling > revival on a mastery build could bring revival back into healer cd rotations, at cost of rising mist in a competitive talent row, similar to holy priest Salvation competing with their more consistent throughput options.

1 Like

The issue is its not waiting 1.5x the cd for double the output. Its waiting 2x the cd for 2x bolts at a specific point. As its 1 bolt per second off cd, a non buffed EF cast it 18 bolts. This means you have to wait 18 second to get 2x but at the same time you could just do 2x ef casts in that window and get the same amount of bolts and have it already half way through its cooldown. You’re not gaining any bolts when you play upwelling. You get the ability to stock bolts up when there is downtime which on most progression fights you’re pressing ef very frequently.

This post was more focused on how to make a talent that at most does a sad % of your hps go up to level of rising mist while increasing synergy in the kit (you can get % of hps done on wowA).

As Ouros was eluding to. I have taken a back seat on raiding and playing on a more competitive level this tier due to work. I also go by Abelito75 on almost all other platforms. But I’m a mod in peak for mw, I’m the spec lead for mw in peak (meaning I write the guides and maintain the mw part of the website for them), I maintained wowA for 2 years iirc but left due to different design ideas with the owner, I did the majority of the alpha/beta testing for mw (if you remember the giga big bug threads that was me), I was also one of the 3 monks asked to come onto sloot’s stream talking about alpha/beta issues with the class.

I’m not saying all of these things to say I have these things listen to me but rather to give some validity to my understanding and knowledge of the spec!

But in general this was just a fun idea I had and thought I’d make a forum post about it!

3 Likes

you could just do 2x ef casts in that window and get the same amount of bolts

This strategy costs twice as much mana. In mistweaver. And you reduce overhealing by not having to cast it on cooldown. Do you still not see the benefit of upwelling? Hint: The benefit is stacking our short cd raid heal, as well as exactly 3600 mana every 30 seconds which equals 36,000 mana over the course of a short raid boss.

I only brought up revival because you suggested further Essence Font integration with mastery. It already interacts with mastery, in a substantial and interesting way. Revival, on the other hand, has zero interaction with mastery, so if we’re adding mastery effects to our kit, it aught to be revival.

1 Like

What else are you going to cast to do effective healing? Vivify is almost always more mana inefficiently by a large margin. Hitting rjw is only 1 button for your raid event. Soothing mist is also fairly mana inefficiently when compared to ef.

(efficiency as in healing/mana spent)

for reference
Vivify with 2 renewing mists is 57% as efficient as essence font
Vivify with 3 renewing mists is 74.5% as efficient as essence font
A full channel soothing mist by itself is 85.9% as efficient as essence font

While yes essence font has the highest mana cost out of all of our spells it is also the one that does the most healing per cast

Other effective heals are spot healing specific heavy damage targets with your double mastery buff, and letting other healers cover raid damage until your next essence font (notably Drain Essence on council, a notorious raid-damage heavy fight, or Withering Touch on artificer during any of the raid damage abilities)

Basically, it’s a tradeoff. Efficient healing at the wrong time is not efficient healing - some fights don’t have a “wrong time” so upwelling falls off in usefulness, and you’ll want to slam rsk rising mists to keep the output constant, high, and synergizing with talents.
I did the math to check your numbers based on my current gear (226.5 ilvl, balanced crit/vers/mastery) and you aught to include a single gust proc for that soothing mist cast figure, since you get about one per full channel. This bumps raw channeling of soothing to about equal a baseline ef cast – higher or lower depending on if you miss out on a late proc.
Also an added benefit of channeling for downtime is it keeps your gcd free to act elsewhere (or burst your current target), giving you that extra gcd to handle the next situation… kinda like a stealth haste buff for the next sequence of casts.

If your goal is to maximize sustained raid healing, then yeah upwelling doesnt really help like rising mists does. But if you take advantage of upwelling giving essence font a more versatile form, it really shines, and I’d be sad to see a major rework

1 Like

Baseline soothing is this 440 spell power if we factor in one mastery proc we can add 60 spell power which would be 60% mastery
this means you’d do roughly 600 spell power for 1600 mana

Baseline essence font does over 1000 spell power per cast for 3200 mana
each bolt hits for 47.2 sp
each hot it produces is 16.8 at base duration
As it’s 47.2 x 18 + roughly 12 x 16.8

I say roughly 12 due to the fact that certain hots will pandemic meaning you will not get 18 unique hearts This is also lowballing it because I’m not including pandemic hots here in terms of their increase spell power

so stating that 1 full soom = 1 ef in terms of raw healing is just false

Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I was comparing mana efficiency of the full channel (including one gust) to the mana efficiency of an untalented essence font (max targets, no lost hot time)

1 Like

but again it is 2 gcd’s gain, for the mana right assuming max stacks, so u save 7.2% mana
in order for you to get the 2 gcd gain, you need to spend it on somewhere else.
vivify is 3.8% mana per gcd (since the cast time is = gcd) as its cheapest non rotational spell.
so unless that 2 gcd that you spend is a dps ability (rsk/tp/bok/sck) or soom(1.2% mana for 3 seconds), it is still more efficient to just cast EF whenever damage comes up.

Yeah you still have to use your time efficiently. Soothing mist is a low cost option, 3 target vivify is nice if you prepped your renewing mists before hand, or just after your upwelling is a great time to apply two renewing mists to get your double mastery while applying them, then go into 3 ReM vivifys. Theres good stuff to do, just depends on how the damage is looking.
It’s no excuse to waste mana, but it’s definitely better than spamming untalented EF

ya but that mana efficiency doesnt belong to vivify, it belongs to rem, you have to use rem to get that off. vivify alone is inefficient. wow analyser shows that.

hence why i said, non rotational ability

WoW analyzer makes a binary distinction between “which spell deserves the efficiency score” because they have to in order to display it in a graph. You have to cast BOTH spells to get the efficiency from a cleaved vivify.

What you’re saying is like saying that Renewing Mists should also get the double mastery effect from essence font, since without casting renewing mist, you wouldn’t get any mastery at all.

The efficiency belongs to the combination of spells we use. If they wanted to be thorough, they would list the efficiency of vivify, as distinguished by how many renewing mist targets it can cleave to, with the option to average them.

The point is that we can do comparably efficient things to make use of extra time while letting our upwelling grow for later use.

1 Like

no the extra mastery bolt would belong to EF, because without that as the activator then you wouldnt have gotten it in the first place.

the issue with upwelling being very underwhelming atm is because rising mist does what EF does interms of hot extension, and with the lack of controlled mastery procs like secret infusion during bfa, makes the extra 4 sec of EF very underwhelming.

2 Likes

Being in melee is restrictive, if you don’t want that restriction you can take upwelling and raid heal equally well. It’s only underwhelming if you’re jamming EF as it comes off cooldown, which is like taking rising mist and then never RSK anything.

1 Like

Mag, do you need me to cyberbully him for walking in here like the Sherriff of Knowington and being an insufferable authoritarian dweeb? Because I will. You just say the word.