Controversy: Remove Might of the Frozen wastes

Classes Death Knight
162

I never said it was. ???

I pointed out that…

  1. 2H scaled more poorly with multiple secondary stats than did DW and
  2. the %growth per point of stat varied with one’s spec in WoD, but never with one’s weapon choice,
  3. which meant without additional tuning passes, the gap between 2H and DW would inevitably grow simply because they failed to consider their differences in scaling (instead lazily just throwing onto 2H a single modifying passive), which says far more about simple lack of foresight/attention (that DK theorycrafters and sims had accurately predicted well before) than it does anything unavoidable.

How the heck is stopping Mastery from affecting a source of damage that is hugely greater for one build than the other “not problematic at all when removed”? That’s arbitrarily nerfing a secondary stat for a particular build only.

Let’s take what few actual suggestions —i.e., not just mirrored "No, you!"s or similar derailments— have been given in this exact thread.

Now, are they, as you claim, asking to keep 2H pigeonholed to Obliterate, specifically?

I’m not seeing the “2H should be solely about Obliterates” here…

Now, the literal title of this thread is “Remove Might of the Frozen Wastes”, so I’ll accept that it’s perhaps not the most representative sample.

…But I’m not seeing any requests to lock 2H to Obliterate only in any of the other 20 most recently updated DK threads, either. And at that point, we’re no longer chancing an inherently unrepresentative sample.

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163

You did say it was. You even highlighted stat, then quoted stat scalers, and then quoted MotFW. That means you are saying that MotFW was stat based when it’s not.

2h scaling more poorly than DW? More evidence that it’s a DW spec, thanks for that.

Don’t know why you would bring up the amount of stats needed to get 1% not varying with weapon choice… pretty pointless

And no, they didnt fail to consider the differences in scaling, they failed to consider a lot of stuff. 2 runeforges, DW mechanics, the split spec and not being able to balance abilities even if you ignore the secondary stats. And then 2h was removed and all things were good for frost.

All builds use Frostreaper, it’s not problematic if it’s removed. And its not nerfing a secondary stat, its nerfing Obliterate which needs to be nerfed.

Deadract wants 2h removed completely so I don’t know why you included him.

Chillpills is one of the reasons Frost is even in this mess as is Diiecrux.

Mordirhar wants 2h to be about Obliterate as does Gothrek or have you not been paying attention to what they have been saying.

Also you asked “why lock 2h into a particular build via concentration on a particular skill” and the answer is because people asked for it. Asked means past tense, not what is going on now. The reason why Frost is in the state it is in now, is because of these people in the past ASKED FOR IT.

Oh, you didnt see Gothrek saying they wanted to do massive 2h Obliterates and have a massive Reaper’s Mark to execute them? Must be doing the same thing you did with the Frost tree for over a year, not looking at it. 10.0.7 is when MotFW was made baseline, there is no excuse other than… you just don’t care so why are you here?

164

They need to choose, either make 2hander the standard or DW, but not both, both has been actively hurting the spec since it was introduced.

165

We know xd

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166

Here is the logical response to those people (considering if they are saying that than they either didn’t play frost in LK endgame and/or didn’t truly follow the high end discussions and/or didn’t test it very well themselves) →
Is that why the DW talent started in the frost tree they very quickly added ToT (3.2) and they had to add MotFW in the cata pre-patch to help 2h players catch up to the DW players? Sounds more like 2H was the afterthought.

167

2h was the afterthought when it comes to frost, the DK creators themselves said Frost was DW.

168

What kind of monster

169

So are you advocating for pruning 2h now?

Losing or disgruntling a group of players instead of fixing the spec is ridiculous. If the company can absorb a 500k loss with no problem why do they refuse to hire more class devs a 1/3 of the cost and make people happy?

Telling people they should have rolled a different class because they want 2h back is such a neckbeard move. What happened to you man.

Obliterate should hit hard. The name of the spell is obliterate. It is not the 2h communities fault Blizzard implemented it poorly. Its one thing to ask for obliterate to hit hard. Its a complete other thing to make everything revolve around it.

I dont understand why it always comes down to 2h vs DW. “Well if there weren’t two weapon types it would be easier to balance.” It makes no difference. They have tuning knobs and aura knobs on the backend to do whatever they need to. They do it with pvp all the time! “X ability is nerfed by Y% but: Doesn not apply to pvp”. They can apply the same IF/then logic to 2h/Dw.

And again, might as well get rid of specs and create one class/spec because they can only do one thing at a time right?

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170

So either reading comprehension isn’t your strong suite or you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

I’ll try this again since it’s clearly difficult for you to understand.

  • Frost has never been like Arms or Ret (building into a few big hits)
  • Asking to make Frost like Arms or Ret is similar to asking Fury to be like Assassination - they’re completely different playstyles and have never been similar
  • People that asked for Frost to be changed to be like Arms or Ret should have rerolled to Arms or Ret instead
  • A very clear majority of the people that asked for 2h back didn’t want to play a Frost Death Knight with a 2h, they wanted to play an Obliteration bot

If the spec was weapon agnostic I wouldn’t remotely care if 2h was better or worse than DW. I’ve been very clear from the start that my issue is 2h being forced back into Frost as an Obliterate bot and not integrated to work with Frost DK as a whole.

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171

You are FRIIIIIED LOOOOOL

Asking frost to be like ret and warrior, in every way, is acceptable. All it means is that frost should be a brawler esk melee rather than a setup based rogue esk melee like it currently is

Frost has been very much like ret and warrior for many expansions in a row where your primary duty was go into the thick of it, and dps. It slowly got changed (mostly due to brainless PvE) to be some weird setup based AoE gimmick spec its become

People who advocate for DW frost should just go play outlaw rogue, Single minded fury, Demon hunter, Enhancement shaman,

Nah, People just got sick of the soyboy toothpick fantasy that got forced on the spec, Also robbed DKs of getting one of the coolest weapons in the game alongside ashbringer in legion

You realize thats a self contradicting statement right

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172

So ignoring you didn’t make you go away - it instead led you to mention me by name because I’ve been living in your all these years?

You can’t just say “clear majority” and then not cite a source, dude. That’s just ridiculous.

And 1Hs are little more than proc sticks for the magic abilities, making Frost closer to a caster than a melee class when dual-wielding. The difference is, “Obliteration botting” is at last a melee build, not a wannabe necro-mage.

You’re right, because nobody dies to a dual-wielding Frost DK, even after a thousand cuts. But to actually steelman your ridiculous point rather than mock it, the whole concept of DW is using a “flurry” of attacks to wear the target down over time. Go ahead and try a melee-focused Frost build with 1Hs. Your damage is going to be trashi in PvE, and you are not going to kill anyone in PvP unless they are AFK.

This is a pretty ignorant take considering certain people obviously want Frost DK to function a certain way, not Arms or Ret. Asking for a spec to be changed so that the damage is distributed differently is a matter of personal preference, so there is no problem with wanting it. What is a problem is pretending like your preference is the objective standard or morality, and that everyone that deviates from it is somehow wrong or invalid.

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173

It’s not even remotely contradictory but that’s typical for you to misinterpret things.

Right now is not a huge problem because of the legendary but without it, you still need 3 weapons to play Frost effectively in all endgame pillars.

If Frost was weapon agnostic and you could play 2h Breath in raids, you’d then only need 2h or DW to play Frost effectively. And if 2h was ahead in this scenario I wouldn’t care because I wouldn’t need to get 3 weapons, only 1 or 2.

Nothing at all about that is contradictory.

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174

if the spec was weapon agnostic there would be no such thing as 2h or DW being better than the other thats what the idea of being weapon agnostic is

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175

How does saying “we got X, which was problematic, instead of Y, which we needed”… create a claim that “X is Y”???

They very literally did. WoD DW and 2H scaled increasingly differently with Haste, Multistrike, and especially Mastery.

Had they been given different scaling multipliers, that could have been almost entirely corrected for. But they seemingly couldn’t, because at the time they only had class- and spec-based adjustments to stat growth coefficients.

It does both. It cannot help but do both. Nerfing Obliterate’s use of Mastery nerfs Mastery’s contribution through Obliterate.

Whether Obliterate hits worth a damn or not, it is an obligatory component of your rotation — a builder and proc-generator.

Before the removal of Frostreaper: 90% of your ST damage scales with Mastery.
After the removal of Frostreaper: 45% of your ST damage scales with Mastery.

In other words, if Mastery gave, say, 130% the damage per point that Versatility gave, each point of Mastery would previously have been worth 117% of what Versatility is worth, while after your suggested nerf, it’d be worth only 58.5% of what Versatility is worth.

Unless you then make Mastery scale differently for 2H users to compensate, how is that not a Mastery nerf?

That depends on how tightly the two perform and whether the leads are consistent.

If 2H were always 0.5% ahead, we’d only need 1 weapon. If DW is always 0.5% ahead, we’d only need 2 weapons.

But if DW was 2% ahead in AoE and 2H 2% ahead in ST, min-maxers would need 3 weapons.

It’s the same for Titan’s Grip vs. SMF on Fury, though there they risk having to maintain 4 weapons.

  • Which is partly why the more comprehensive answer for many has just been to remove upgrade costs entirely after the first 2 hands’ worth of weaponry (instead of merely discounting them / reducing them only to flightstones) and rehaul Loot Specialization, but that still leaves issues with needing to move eventually to higher-“track” weapons.
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176

Oh, of course, rent free and all that. Its not that you just werent a part of the whole “2h or bust” crowd calling people trolls and trying to silence people. You only really came to mind because this topic is going on.

I know I am.

No its not, thats YOUR idea of DW. What do you think the purpose of ToT + Nerves of Cold Steel was? Death by a thousand cuts or to have the best of both worlds in a singular build? You dont get more attacks with DW because in order to do that you would need more resources than 2h, you dont get that. You dont know what you are talking about and you never did.

177

Hard to understand your nonsense to be honest. Your takes are not good, and its surprising because not to long ago they were reasonable.

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178

I dont even think you know what you are asking.

No they didnt.

It doesnt nerf mastery.

179

I have to assume here that you mean “button-presses”; else, this is objectively wrong, even if excluding the effects of Rime.

In-game parlance uses includes both “auto-attacks” (those based only on weapon damage) and “special attacks” (those with unique modifiers, usually with a separate button-press, but technically able to be triggered automatically) under the term “attacks”.

Note also that Blizzard tooltips and system language counts each individual rolled (crit-capable, with its +/- 5% damage deviation) attempt as a separate “attack”.

Even now, dual-wielding 2.6s weapons gives you 292% of the auto-attack rate of using a single 3.8s weapon. DWing gives you more auto-attacks, as it did in WotLK.

When each individual attack double-counted via ToT, you also, in effect, got 5 extra proc-capable attacks per 20s pre-Haste. DWing objectively gave you more special attacks, per in-game parlance.

And because you’d get an extra 5 Obliterate hits per 20s, you also had 5 more chances at 15% chance each to trigger Rime, in turn giving you an additional GCD of action. DWing even objectively gave you more button-presses.

Reducing something’s effective damage produced per stat point by up to 50%… is a nerf. It is objectively a nerf.

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180

Its actually extremely easy, must be a you problem.

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181

Its not wrong and you dont have to assume anything. DW is not death by a thousand cuts.

Say whaaaat?

Yeah you are going on ignore, its just annoying at this point.