I addressed the substance. You regarded my comments as trying to “dress it up as being some sort of objective reality” when this is the product of working my way through research papers that have left me with these positions. I’m sorry that you disagree that the mimesis effect exists, but your opinion does not undo said research.
… and I also have to tack this back to what you told me you wanted - because if you are going to excoriate me for not giving the proper respect to your position - then I have to point out that in order to achieve your stated positions, such requires ruining the experience of far more people than you. You presented me with the only case I’ve found so far where I am forced to say that the needs of the many outweigh the few, or the one. There is no way to square the circle when you’re saying “yep, I’m okay with making you and everyone who likes the same things as you suffer, and I’m okay with making this other fanbase suffer in order to get what I want”, especially when it’s just you.
You’ll have to forgive my skepticism about the relevance of your research since you can’t seem to think of a better application for it than trying to use it as a symbol of authority on the matter of whether or not a bunch of Elves should get their tree back in a video game.
I don’t think there’s really anything else to say. You can suggest malicious intent on my part all you want but the proof is in the pudding here. People care about different things, and if you are going to argue that retroactive narrative changes should happen in order to indulge the emotional attachments of Night Elf or Foraken fans you’ll need to deal with the fact that everyone else is going to want the same thing for the stuff they care about.
Honestly I’m not sure anything you could feasibly do in the game will ever make some night elf players content.
Probably the best action would be is that they get all their lands back and the Horde either leave or are forced out by them and they get a new capital built on Hyjal. Most importantly is that this is shown in game through phasing. No more vague answers provided through random Blizcon interviews.
Regarding the Forsaken as much of an attachment they had to Lordearon honestly I think they would be better off with a new home. Perhaps a remade Naxxramas as a functional city that floats over the plague lands in game. Its more character development I think they need more than a new zone. Id remove Calia from having anything to do with them and build up Archbishop Faol instead maybe even have meryl felstorm join them.
Regarding people caring about different things - yes, MMOs are like that. A good MMO can introduce those competing interests and give them something to be invested in and to fight for, rather than dismantling their investment for shock value. But you introduce a unique problem of wanting to resurrect a kingdom that died before the MMO’s parameters were set, and by so doing, destroying the investment of however many fanbases that you can identify as standing between you and that goal.
I believe in trying to accommodate as many stakeholders as possible, but your objectives require screwing over a ton of people for your personal benefit.
Edit: @ Badmaa
I think some people won’t be content unless they’re burning Orgrimmar down - but we can’t ask for that in a multi-faction MMO. An onscreen reconquest in Ashenvale is realistically what’s needed - a strong moment to show that the Night Elves aren’t pushovers in the faction conflict - something to get people motivated to play the race again. Once again, I believe that Horde content can be built up concurrently to emphasize their relatedness and focus on what they must protect to restore motivation on that side.
“The mimesis effect is a universal, all-encompassing truth that applies to everyone and everything. If you say a book has a bigger impact on you than a video game cinematic you are lying. My research proves that you, yes you, cannot possibly have been affected more from an RTS than an MMO. It’s all here in this pamphlet.”
I think we all just need space from another. More geographically defined borders would also help. But if I were to step out of my comfort zone here and delve into neat things I’d like to see for the NEs…
In a hypothetical Anti-Cata expac, I would want for the NEs to be allowed to consolidate and rebuild. New capital cities should be made as hybrid questing zones and player hubs. Thus, have the NE capital be Mt. Hyjal. Have it spill down the mountain, along with their quest chain of renewal. Moving into Winterspring (making it the NE winter wonderland it should have always been); Felwood (fully cleansing that blighted forest); into Ashenvale (setting up a new stronghold at the once Warsong Lumber Camp, and fleshing out Astranaar into a richer town); then up through Darkshore. Where, there racial questline concludes with the replanting of a new World Tree. One meant to become another great NE city, even if its not immediate. And one borne of the first healthy acorn of the reborn and healed G’Hanir. A true sibling tree to Nordrassil, not just a child or cutting of it, marking the fruits of Aviana’s efforts since Cata.
Yes, my vision of an NE rebuilding story does require abdication from certain zones like Stonetalon for national defense … but that is the sort of story I’d like to see for them. An amazing terraced capital, and the promise of a second. Same goes for the Forsaken TBH, with Strat and Lordaeron.
The political and geopolitical positions of the Night Elves and of the Forsaken are very different, and I’m also not a fan of this presumption that any development in one area must necessarily be mirrored elsewhere. The Night Elves lost Teldrassil, but they still nominally control everything from Darkshore to Eastern Ashenvale to Hyjal to Stonetalon.
The Forsaken’s situation is different. They lost Undercity, and as of the Eastern Kingdoms atlas the Alliance controls Gilneas, Southern Silverpine, Southern Hillsbrad, all of Arathi, and portions of WPL. Alliance-friendly forces control most of the Plaguelands including Stratholme. Tirisfal is either nominally controlled by the Alliance or is controlled by nobody. What Forsaken outposts may remain (if there are any) are completely encircled.
Anduin is probably going to let the Forsaken return, but for them to retake multiple zones would require both the Alliance and the Argent Crusade to surrender control of pretty much the entire subcontinent.
The fact is that the Forsaken were nowhere near as dominant in the Eastern Kingdoms as the Night Elves were in Northern Kalimdor, and were consistently surrounded by either open or implicit opposition. This isn’t a scenario that realistically results in the Forsaken suddenly controlling even MORE than they used to, especially considering their decimated numbers and questionable future.
It’s different varieties of shafting. The Night Elf players pretty much took it in their background story and setting while they got to look heroic.
The Horde players got put into the position where they had to do the exact same tasks whether they were Sylvannas Loyalists or Resistance for Saurfang. It gets even weirder when as a loyalist you’re told to play along and kill fellow loyal troops in rescuing Derek Proudmoorre when Sylvannas is priming him to be a weapon for your side. And then the final humiliation is having to serve Alliance leaders in order to do the resolution of the expansion story.
If you’re doing the Ardenweald campaign, it becomes all about saving Night Elf souls and populating the Covenant with them. The other souls you save become faceless counters in your Covenant upgrade bank. Now I enjoy liberating those Night Elf souls as Drahliana, but I can feel the definite lack of service to Horde players who choose that covenant.
Night Elf players have significant justified beefs, many of which I share and sympathise with. But you don’t know half of what it was to be screwed up as a player unless you played Horde, no matter whether you were rooting for Sylvannas or nursing a desire for her head on a pike.
Gilneas lore wise remains blighted. The warfront that was to advance that story never materialied. If Gilneas was under Alliance control, there would not be Worgen refugees in Stormwind, heck a significant number of Night Elves probably would have moved in as well.
I mostly base it on the fact that the Alliance controls most of Silverpine as of the Eastern Kingdoms exploration book, such as Fenris Isle and particularly Shadowfang Keep. Regardless, the fact that the Alliance’s strategic and political position in the area is very strong compared to the Forsaken’s remains true.
No it isn’t. In Cata we see the Gilneans, with some help from the 7th Legion, push the Forsaken out of Gilneas. The conflict ends in a stalemate with the Gilneans retreating into Gilneas and agreeing not to continue to attack Silverpine Forest.
The Alliance “controls” Gilneas, this is backed up by the BfA mission tables, but they haven’t resettled it likely because they would be sitting ducks for the Horde to attack again.
I don’t think it is a universally agreed upon premise it was a mistake. I’m ok with what happened. Quel’thas was destroyed along with 90% of its population, Lordaeron was destroyed and its citizens turn into undead. Gilneas was destroyed. Theramore was destroyed. Even the whole of Azeroth was torn asunder. Why is the burning of Teldrassil or the blighting of Undercity any different?
That is sensible to me and lines up with what the game shows, but there’s clear miscommunication between the dev team and Christie Golden, as they keep contradicting each other.
These are the different sources from my understanding:
Early Cata quests, that end with the GLF driving the Forsaken out, then being driven back behind the wall, as a prelude to the Battle for Gilneas battleground (where the Forsaken attack by sea).
Late Cata quests, that show the black dragon Creed has taken control of Gilneas City by posing as Gilnean nobleman, and retained control of the city by leading corrupted worgen in defending against Forsaken assaults.
End of MoP, where Varian says the Alliance will focus on cleansing and rebuilding Gilneas in the war’s aftermath.
Before the Storm (by Christie Golden), where Genn Greymane implies the kingdom is home to the Forsaken.
Blizzcon, where the developers state that the Horde’s intent during the Stromgarde warfront is to secure a base from which to attack Gilneas.
BfA war table missions, which state the Forsaken are again trying to attack Gilneas, while the Alliance is attacking from Gilneas.
Christie Golden’s twitter, where she suggests the Forsaken refugees from Lordaeron temporarily relocated to Gilneas.
So, it makes me think there hasn’t been clear direction internally on how Gilneas is to be written, as it is only ever mentioned tangentially, and then in different ways between the developers and Golden.
This was discussed previously. The MMO as a format delivers those events in far more impactful of a fashion, and rather than putting the audience in the position of a detached observer, the MMO puts you directly in the shoes of a member of the society to which that is happening. It takes that very personal investment - one that you just can’t get from prologue information or from the RTS format - and directs it at you, rather than at a set of characters that you are observing.
This is why you don’t see Night Elf fans complaining about the loss of life that the Third War necessarily imparted, or that of the War of the Ancients. Neither of those events were presented in the way that the MMO presented Teldrassil.
This is really all we’re asking for. But it gets shot down at every turn by certain groups of Horde posters who are only concerned with their own enjoyment.
However the Horde need a proper victory as well. Not over the Alliance but perhaps they can claim the broken Isles and Northrend from the Vyrkul and build new homes.
Maybe all the Vyrkul could go to war against the Horde at Odyn’s call and the Horde defeat them in glorious combat.
I agree and I think they should be allowed to run rough shod over Alliance forces in the northern EK or completely claim the Plaguelands for their own.
