If you want hard raids, go raid mythic in retail. Not everything in vanilla needs to be hard, and not everything is about raid progression.
LOL, the problem with Classic is that is KNOWN content. The experience you're looking for CANNOT BE recreated. Or it is it might be different for other people.
11/04/2018 11:36 AMPosted by BladesosteelPoll for the topic:
https://strawpoll.com/r7g19gd8
As things stand now pre-Naxx raiding is going to be far easier than it was, and some raids are outright trivial.
1.12 talent changes being active for entry level raids like MC make this raid dramatically easier than it was as fresh content. DM gear being available at launch will contribute to this.
MC was never an ultra-challenging raid. But it was never the mindless button spamming AOE-fest that defines retail LFR. That is the very type of content that people grew to dislike and made them want Classic back in the first place!
Similarly with BWL, ZG, AQ...we want Classic so we can experience these raids as they were originally intended. Using 1.12 talents and gear denies us of that chance.
We don't want an authentic 1.12 experience. You chose 1.12, not us. We want an authentic Vanilla experience. Trivial raids were not a part of that experience.
While I agree with the sentiment, Vanilla raids are all 100% trivial now, just by merit of the knowledge we have today vs how it was back then. I gaurantee you, with 1.1 talents and itemization, MC will still be steamrolled. Myabe not AS easily as with the DM gear and 1.12 talents, but its much less to do with that than it is just having people who know the class mechanics and fight mechanics and proper itemization. Part of what made early vanilla so hard was a lack of information, people went into MC and BWL wearing their full dungeon 0 sets thinking that was what they were supposed to do, nowadays everyone knows better, +healing/mp5 for healers, +spell damage for casters, the importance of hit and crit on items for physical dps vs raw stats, +defence for tanks, ect ect.
That being said I would much prefer a true to life model of starting at patch 1.1 with an actual progression release timeline, proper talent trees as per patch progression, itemization rollbacks to original state and only changed to newer itemizations once the appropriate historical points have been met. I think that would be WAY more fun and engaging than another pserver clone attempt doing 1.12 with a janky mishmash of talents/itemization/content
Once upon a time Blizzard's philosophy to game design was "if it isn't groundbreaking and amazing then there's no place for it at our company". So many games were designed and scrapped (including completely finished games) because they felt mediocre and Blizzard didn't do mediocre. 1.12 Pserver clone Classic is exactly that MEDIOCRE. Give us a truly amazing project, put in the work to go all the way back to the beginning with the original talents, give all the private server heros something new to struggle with and make them think outside the box about their gearing and talent choices instead of the basic cookie cutter stuff theyve been doing for the past 5+ years.
Classic raids will always become trivial.
They have limited mechanics and because it is a static game you're going to run into the issue where at some point everyone has gear. People were 3 manning MC before classic ended if I remember correctly.
They have limited mechanics and because it is a static game you're going to run into the issue where at some point everyone has gear. People were 3 manning MC before classic ended if I remember correctly.
It's sad, but it looks like they don't want to rebalance raids for 1.12 talents
This is a conclusion from the words of Ion Hazzikostas about 16 debuffs
This is a conclusion from the words of Ion Hazzikostas about 16 debuffs
MC was trivial. BWL still has mechanics that need to be done. People still need to perform even if it does make it marginally easier to complete. There is still aq40, and lets keep in mind how many people cleared that and moved to naxx .
So in the end a few more people may get ashkandi than back in Vanilla.
So in the end a few more people may get ashkandi than back in Vanilla.
11/04/2018 12:19 PMPosted by ArrtilarrIt's sad, but it looks like they don't want to rebalance raids for 1.12 talents
This is a conclusion from the words of Ion Hazzikostas about 16 debuffs
Yes, I feel like their logic on this point is inconsistent, especially with regard to the decision to launch at 1.12 for talents, etc. but to stagger content.
I mean one should follow the other, and is why the 'slippery slope aint slippery when it actually happens' arguments raged here.
Ion said they aren't going to allow mods that played for you to work in classic servers.
AKA decursive and scripts that ran through your entire rotation.
40 man raids without decursive will still require you to pay attention.
Unless you're one of those people who only played private servers.
Decursive was a game-changing mod when it came out. Trivialized SO MANY mechanics.
But raids like MC will always be easy for anyone who has played any newer versions of WoW. The 40-man requirement was the hardest part of the raid. At the end of vanilla you could PUG MC and ZG quite easily.
AKA decursive and scripts that ran through your entire rotation.
40 man raids without decursive will still require you to pay attention.
Unless you're one of those people who only played private servers.
Decursive was a game-changing mod when it came out. Trivialized SO MANY mechanics.
But raids like MC will always be easy for anyone who has played any newer versions of WoW. The 40-man requirement was the hardest part of the raid. At the end of vanilla you could PUG MC and ZG quite easily.
11/04/2018 12:23 PMPosted by FellínaMC was trivial. BWL still has mechanics that need to be done. People still need to perform even if it does make it marginally easier to complete. There is still aq40, and lets keep in mind how many people cleared that and moved to naxx .
So in the end a few more people may get ashkandi than back in Vanilla.
BWL was cleared while dealing with massive server lag at one point during vanilla. It's only slightly harder then MC. AQ40 was long hard due to its travel times and the playbook as been written for all of them. The wipes will still happen but I bet Naxx will be cleared with a week or two it's launch as well.
11/04/2018 12:33 PMPosted by Vip11/04/2018 12:23 PMPosted by FellínaMC was trivial. BWL still has mechanics that need to be done. People still need to perform even if it does make it marginally easier to complete. There is still aq40, and lets keep in mind how many people cleared that and moved to naxx .
So in the end a few more people may get ashkandi than back in Vanilla.
BWL was cleared while dealing with massive server lag at one point during vanilla. It's only slightly harder then MC. AQ40 was long hard due to its travel times and the playbook as been written for all of them. The wipes will still happen but I bet Naxx will be cleared with a week or two it's launch as well.
Everything will be cleared the first day its released (minus MC/Ony and only because people need time to hit 60 first). but even MC and Ony will likely only bee 1-1.5 weeks into launch before theyre cleared.
11/04/2018 12:28 PMPosted by Hrothknut11/04/2018 12:19 PMPosted by ArrtilarrIt's sad, but it looks like they don't want to rebalance raids for 1.12 talents
This is a conclusion from the words of Ion Hazzikostas about 16 debuffs
Yes, I feel like their logic on this point is inconsistent, especially with regard to the decision to launch at 1.12 for talents, etc. but to stagger content.
I mean one should follow the other, and is why the 'slippery slope aint slippery when it actually happens' arguments raged here.
They are following what pservers do.
And that model has been successful for over a decade now.
They said they didn't want to maintain 2 MMO's which should have told you that classic would be a static game...1.12.
11/04/2018 12:33 PMPosted by Vip11/04/2018 12:23 PMPosted by FellínaMC was trivial. BWL still has mechanics that need to be done. People still need to perform even if it does make it marginally easier to complete. There is still aq40, and lets keep in mind how many people cleared that and moved to naxx .
So in the end a few more people may get ashkandi than back in Vanilla.
BWL was cleared while dealing with massive server lag at one point during vanilla. It's only slightly harder then MC. AQ40 was long hard due to its travel times and the playbook as been written for all of them. The wipes will still happen but I bet Naxx will be cleared with a week or two it's launch as well.
I dont disagree. Top guilds should be able to do all this cause they know whats comming. But they werent going to care if you gave them 8 debuffs or 250. They were still going to clear it quickly.
For everyone else its a buffer and makes the first 2 raids slightly easier before the aq40 patch.
11/04/2018 12:33 PMPosted by Vip
BWL was cleared while dealing with massive server lag at one point during vanilla. It's only slightly harder then MC. AQ40 was long hard due to its travel times and the playbook as been written for all of them. The wipes will still happen but I bet Naxx will be cleared with a week or two it's launch as well.
I wiped for 6 hours on Razorgore with an MC-geared raid during vanilla. We called it because people in-raid couldn't afford repair bills anymore. BWL was a significant step up from MC.
Today it might feel easy, comparatively, but it was WAY harder than MC back then.
11/04/2018 12:36 PMPosted by Kooka11/04/2018 12:33 PMPosted by Vip
BWL was cleared while dealing with massive server lag at one point during vanilla. It's only slightly harder then MC. AQ40 was long hard due to its travel times and the playbook as been written for all of them. The wipes will still happen but I bet Naxx will be cleared with a week or two it's launch as well.
I wiped for 6 hours on Razorgore with an MC-geared raid during vanilla. We called it because people in-raid couldn't afford repair bills anymore. BWL was a significant step up from MC.
Today it might feel easy, comparatively, but it was WAY harder than MC back then.
Which comes down to a lack of knowledge back then, nowadays any halfways decent guild will 1 shot razorgore with no problems whatsoever.
It's nonsense to mention pre-naxx as though it's a massive difficulty jump from aq40. Late aq40 bosses are harder than early naxx bosses. The difficulty increase is relatively linear.
11/04/2018 12:00 PMPosted by VipLOL, the problem with Classic is that is KNOWN content. The experience you're looking for CANNOT BE recreated. Or it is it might be different for other people.
Why do people insist on adlibing in "experience" when all that was requested was the unaltered game? We can create the experience from the game, we don't need or even want blizz to create our experience, just give us the platform to create our own.
11/04/2018 12:41 PMPosted by Slientknight11/04/2018 12:00 PMPosted by VipLOL, the problem with Classic is that is KNOWN content. The experience you're looking for CANNOT BE recreated. Or it is it might be different for other people.
Why do people insist on adlibing in "experience" when all that was requested was the unaltered game? We can create the experience from the game, we don't need or even want blizz to create our experience, just give us the platform to create our own.
This, 100% this
11/04/2018 12:36 PMPosted by Brockthorn11/04/2018 12:28 PMPosted by Hrothknut...
Yes, I feel like their logic on this point is inconsistent, especially with regard to the decision to launch at 1.12 for talents, etc. but to stagger content.
I mean one should follow the other, and is why the 'slippery slope aint slippery when it actually happens' arguments raged here.
They are following what pservers do.
And that model has been successful for over a decade now.
They said they didn't want to maintain 2 MMO's which should have told you that classic would be a static game...1.12.
I understand that, I'm just saying it's an arbitrary distinction and logical non-sequitur.
11/04/2018 12:36 PMPosted by Kooka11/04/2018 12:33 PMPosted by Vip
BWL was cleared while dealing with massive server lag at one point during vanilla. It's only slightly harder then MC. AQ40 was long hard due to its travel times and the playbook as been written for all of them. The wipes will still happen but I bet Naxx will be cleared with a week or two it's launch as well.
I wiped for 6 hours on Razorgore with an MC-geared raid during vanilla. We called it because people in-raid couldn't afford repair bills anymore. BWL was a significant step up from MC.
Today it might feel easy, comparatively, but it was WAY harder than MC back then.
And Vael was definitely the next kick in the nuts when it was current (go, go taunt rotations and timer watching).
But... that was then and this is now. None of it will be really 'difficult' knowing what we know now, and with the 1.12 changes live (even if it's not all of the itemization available via content release) at the point of tackling MC and BWL.