Confusing Dreadlord’s motives

Lore Story Forum
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Okay so -

The Dreadlord’s manipulated Sargeras into creating the Burning Legion to scour all life from the cosmos. While Sargeras thought this was the only way to stop the Void from capturing a Titan-soul the reality was that this was just a way to put the other cosmic forces against each other in service of Death.

So far so good.

In service of that goal they presented Sargeras with Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination as a way to wage a proxy war on Azeroth via the Scourge, to open the way for the Legion to once more invade as they had done in the War of the Ancients.

This is where things get shaky.

The Dreadlord’s seem to take an indirect role in commanding the Scourge and manipulating Arthas into becoming the Lich King’s pawn. Arthas first act upon taking up Frostmourne, however, is to destroy Malganus.

From there things seem to resume going as planned as Kel’thuzad eventually opens a new portal for the Burning Legion to come through. Once this is accomplished the Dreadlord’s attempt to take direct control of the Scourge, but Kel’thuzad and Arthas both quietly rebel against them by the will of the Lich King Nerzhul.

By this point Arthas has raised Sylvanas, but due to the weakening of Nerzhul he loses control of the Scourge and of her in particular and she tries to kill him. Kel’thuzad saves Arthas and sends him to Icecrown to eventually unite with the Helm of Domination and become the new Lich King. Sylvanas meanwhile forms an alliance with Varimathras and forms a splinter faction of undead that would become the Forsaken.

Fast forward to Wrath of the Lich King.

In a twisted way, Arthas intends to protect Azeroth by wiping out all life and creating an undead army to face any threat to the planet.

Malganus, having formed the Scarlet Crusade swears vengeance against him and when we interfere with his plans he promises that we will not be able to defeat Arthas without his aid. The Scarlets killed many so their true service to Death is readily apparent, but Malganus’s apparent opposition to the Jailer’s pawn in Arthas seems strange (an indication that even as the Lich King Arthas had way more free will than he was supposed to?)

Varimathras meanwhile is instrumental in creating the Blight which is deployed at the Wrath Gate. Shortly afterwards he takes over the Undercity and seemingly attempts to once more summon the Burning Legion to Azeroth. His efforts are foiled by the Horde - or are they? Once again he seemed to be working against Arthas by creating the Blight, but also against Sylvanas in taking the Undercity, but if he really had wanted to summon the Legion he probably could have done so in secret without the dramatic betrayal. Did Varimathras fail Sargeras on purpose? If so, how do his actions serve Death?

Fast forward to Legion.

Malganus is seen once again at Broken Shore when Gul’dan wipes out the Alliance forces, but then is absent from then on. Tichondrius is a raid boss, but mainly seems to be baby sitting the Nightborn who swore themselves to the Legion. Varimathras appears, tortured and broken in Antorus, but he speaks to us of warnings about an encircling darkness and directly warns both Horde and Alliance about Sylvanas’s plans which by that point are already unfurling. He’s obviously bitter about his fate, but it seems odd that he would warn us about Sylvanas when (at that point) they’re both supposedly in service of Danathrius and the Jailer.

Now on the PTR Malganus swears his one and only loyalty has always been to Denathrius. Was Varimathras likewise loyal only to the one master, and if so, have they been working not just to undermine Sargeras but also to undermine the Jailer and his servants in some way? Is it going to turn out that Denathrius and the Nathrezim are actually going to be our allies against Zovaal in the long run?

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Arthas rebelled against Zovaal’s will, so did Ner’zhul, and so did Bolvar. It’s why Zovaal hates the three of them.

This will obvioulsy be a retcon, but Varimanthas “sacrificed himself” so Sylvanas could fly under the radar for more time probably.

If you notice: First Zovaal tries to take Arthas (from Lordaeron) but he rebels, and then guns for Sylvanas (current Lordaeron territory ruler)

My money is on whatever Zovaal wants is in Lordaeron.

God knows lol but Zovaal did leave Denathrius to rot basically, so would wager Denathrius/the Dreadlords manipulated Zovaal too same as they did Sargeras.

Dreadlords serve Denathrius, but who does Denathrius serve?

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But Sylvanas wasn’t working with the Jailer yet… so Varimathras dived on the bomb before even knew she’d be on aboard? His dialogue in Legion seemed like they weren’t really friends. Maybe not all Dreadlords are as loyal as the others?

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What if the Dreadlords’ motive it just to cause as much death and destruction across the entire universe, by any means necessary? The end goal is simply The End, even if they end along with it. It doesn’t make sense to us because they’re nihilistic sadistic demons.

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As I said, forced retcon to make Sylvanas extra bad.

Either Sylvanas was thinking about it before Edge of Night or Varimanthras was just they confident he set Sylvanas up perfectly.

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Races are not hiveminds as we’ve seen countless times, so it’s easily possible that while Mal’ganis and the Nathrezim we encounter in 9.1 have always remained loyal to Denathrius, others could have genuinely defected to serve the other powers or even themselves as seen with Culuthas in BC.

Another factor is if the dreadlords who were killed and considered permanently dead like Balnazzar, Varimathras, etc… are truly dead and gone due to becoming demons from consuming the fel or if they have an indoor cheat code from such deaths due to being created by Denathrius.

The more I think about it, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Nathreza was in the midst of a civil war between Denathrius’ loyalists and the others who have chosen to serve different powers or even want to be the master themselves.

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They present Kil’jaeden(not Sargeras) with the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne both of which were forged by the Primus! Who for is unknown but is probably either Margrave Krexus, Margrave Stradama, Margrave Akarek or Draka the Key.

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Nah, the Primus is the Runecarver - that’s on the PTR.

I don’t know if making the distinction between Sargeras and his second in command is necessary, but fine. The question is why do the Dreadlord’s seem to at times aid the Legion and other times work against them, as well as likewise aiding Zovaal and other times undermine his minions. (I get in Arthas and Nerzhul’s case it’s because they were somehow rebelling against Zovaal’s Domination magic, but they still seem to be working at cross purposes with their own stated goals.)

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And the Runecarver forged Frostmourne & Helm of Domination with the Jailer stealing the Blueprints to create Kingsmourne and Anduin’s armor!

The Primus AKA the Runecarver forged the original Vessels of Domination with the Jailer ripping them off!

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Of course their motives are confusing.

You are a 3rd dimensional being and they are playing 5th dimensional chess.

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Okay, fair.

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Dreadlords are playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth-Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker, we’ll never grasp their motives.

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If the Dreadlords really serve Denathrius, then their end goal is likely the domination of Death over all the other powers in the cosmology. They did so by pitting all those other powers against each other, strengthening one while weakening the other, and vice versa. It’s not even entirely clear if Denathrius eventually sees Zovaal as the one ruling it all, or himself.

This goal could very well be tied into not wanting the Light and the Void to destroy the current universe like they’ve been loosely implied to have done to the prior one.

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How does that explain why Varimathras tried to turn the Horde and Alliance against Sylvanas in Legion?

If he was working to help her, he was doing a terrible job.

Sylvanas has recurring fear of betrayal because of Varimathras. It would be hard to retcon this.

The Emerald Nightmare was able to torture her with flashbacks of Varimathras’ betrayal in WoLK.

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Bitterness in his last moments because he turned himself into a demon and was about to perma-die so yolo + Pride?

Idk man at this point all of Edge of Night has been rendered “wrong” so lol

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That, imo, would just be a cheap attempt to remove any redeemable qualities from Sylvanas to make her easier to accept as an irredeemable villian.

Her nuance comes from these moments where she sided against Varimarthas and the Lich King.

Having known about the jailer since EoN doesn’t mean she’s been evil this whole time.

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No, it seems more plausible in hindsight that Varimathras was actually working with Mueh’zala and it’s possibly Varimathras who convinced Mueh’zala to make Sylvanas warchief as a way to make her vulnurable.

“When she siezed your throne of hides an bone, was your allegiance forced? No, I bet you give it up willingly or at least thought you did.” This is a lie and a misdirection. then he says “It matters not, you are blind to the true Darkness in your midst.” Varimathras saw the Darkness coming, because he was an agent of it.

Varimathras was the one who started the 4th War by putting doubt about Sylvanas in the player character’s mind. Sylvanas has shown absolutely no awareness that Mueh’zala made her Warchief, so her becoming Warchief wasn’t by her own designs with the Jailer. The Horde and Alliance turning against Sylvanas, was essentially Varimathras’s doing, all Saurfang had to be was the catalyst.

We find that out in Before the Storm where Sylvanas inner monologue curses Vol’jin and her Loa for making her warchief (a position she never wanted) she wanted to pursue her own agenda of mastering Death without being in the spotlight)

There is where there’s lots of room to interpret this as the Jailer has been lowkey sabotaging Sylvanas, or if Varimathras was just Sylvanas’s handler to keep her under the Jailer’s thumb.

I’m glad I can talk to you Baal, because 1) I think you are open minded 2) I really enjoy talking about THIS topic and this seems to be the only lore space to find other people just as interested in actual lore.

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It’s hard to tell if the Dreadlords are actually working for the jailer or not. Kathra’natir was trying to infiltrate the Council of Tirisfal for a while as Meryl Felstorm. He seems hellbent on destroying Dalaran. He tried to manipulate Khadgar in the form of Medivh to get him to become the Guardian and we kind out in Legion that he was also trying to create a new sect of mages that used both Arcane and Fel.

I would really like them to continue with that narrative. I find the Dreadlord manipulations some of the best lore in the whole game.

I think they should continue with the lore they set down in the comics. I don’t think they should just retcon that lore. They finally hand me interested.

I had a whole theory mapped out about the Dreadlords before Shadowlands, I’ve been following this thread since BfA.

The Nightborne Soulstone can be channeled and all the souls in it can be used as a powerful weapon. the last time we saw it Aethas hid in the top of Dalaran. When I saw Millhouse Manastorm as a Shadowlands dungeon boss I got excited that they would continue this story that he wanted the soulstone, because he presumably wanted to save his father who is currently trapped in a prison in the Twisting Nether. They could easily tie that back to Bwonsamdi and his mojo deals, but what really saddens me is World of Warcraft has such vast lore to pull from but the game really dumbs down the story to make it playable to people who don’t care about the story.

That’s my biggest beef with WoW.

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This would honestly be a really fun (tragic) addition to her story, if Varimathras had actually been acting to prime her towards the Jailer by ruining her connections with everyone else.

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It’s bleak, but that’s probably the closest to an accurate interpretation of their relationship as it exists in lore now.

Who knows how it might be retconned going forward though.

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