people were already maxed out in a lot of cases when that new stuff was added so hardly available to people
Edited this in above, but you had already replied.
They specifically said it would be available early on, so not talking about later patches having more recipes or items in new patch zones.
Do you remember the catch up mechanics for artifact/azerite power systems in those expansions?
EDIT; actually, nevermind. I don’t want to further clutter up what is a good feedback thread with bickering over something trivial. I’m just going to take the blue words at face value for what “catch-up mechanic” tradionally means in wow and be happy about it.
This will do some janky things.
So Q1/Q2 mats will likely continue to be dirt cheap. Except for the occasional crafter and/or min/maxer with a fleet of alts capped on concentration.
At least the fact that max crafters do not need concentration at all, means that for most non-goblins, the fleet of alts problem is solved.
Good. Early xpac is honestly what matters the most and the niche should be in the path selected (e.g. 1h weapon vs helm vs pants). Eventually everyone gets everything, so much less relevant later on.
Early DF was won by folks who fell into 1 or more of the following categories
- Pre-optimized routes due to being in beta and testing
- Cheesing dirt piles for dsk before others knew about it
- Cheese artisan rep
- Other rep cheeses
Often these folks were a full node ahead if not more.
You still do need to figure out what the full KP grind should look like. Anything > 3 or 4 months is excessive. I could live with 4 if we removed the rng dirt piles and mob grind which extended the time per weekly chore by quite a bit.
Why? You did away with mettle for concentration, then add it back in the form of acuity only for recrafts? A max crafter can guarantee an item without even needing concentration, but will be restricted by acuity for recrafts? Might incentivize just making the items again from scratch.
Is it a random assortment of orders per player per day or on the server? Do we now need to worry about npc order sniping on high pop servers? This is what will happen if/when everyone sees the same finite orders. Or will there always be orders available at any given time?
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I’m going to politely disagree, because not everyone is going to want to do end-game professions, but most players will at least consider it necessary to at least get to 100 the "old fashioned way” (and not coincidentally, a methodology they will be familiar with from other MMORPGs).
I “stress” tested inscription, tailoring and enchanting and barely managed to get them to 50 before I ran out of recipes that award skill-ups. This leaves the player, once again, seeking third party websites to find out “what is wrong” because they can’t get over the hump - and this has always been a huge problem with professions in WoW: skill ups locked behind hard to obtain recipes.
If it were me, I would use the 1-100 experience as a parallel leveling experience, using profession quests (designed like regular quests) to bolster the 1-100 skill up experience (a “bounty” for n number of skins/ore/herbs, go find x who will ask you to obtain a rare component and craft a unique item, etc), all of which are found in the hubs you are in as you level from 70-80. You are then awarded either skill points or a recipe. At 25, 50, and 75 you fulfill an NPC work order, which unlocks more recipes to level you along. At 100, the knowledge point system unlocks and you get 100 knowledge points to set you on your way.
This allows new players to get acclimated to the system, allows casual crafters and gatherers to get their skill cap and if the pro crafters need a little something-something, then using the NPC work order system can come into play - as not everyone likes to quest either.
The system in DF was very unsatisfying for a lot of players (not all, to be sure) - common complaints were basically too much of a pain to skill up (others being not able to “re-talent” and then having an overflow of profession knowledge once you capped everything).
There also needs to be an alt catch up mechanic, since some people like to quest on one toon, but have alts that are their crafting or gathering alts. At one point, these alts were a source of revenue for the player, but now with the system designed so that the most time sunk is the most effective, those revenue streams dried up.
I would also counsel against putting recipes and crafting requirements in group content. I am fine with raid-quality maguffins dropping in raids that raiders can use for their crafted requests, but the whole point of making crafting a tentpole is so folks can be crafters and not have to worry about group content. And I don’t believe many people enjoyed having to run a dungeon to get to the decayed altar. I know profession stuff dropping in dungeons and raids has been a Blizzard thing forever, but it is extremely annoying, though maybe not as horrible now there are follower dungeons and you can just go do the thing on your terms. But at best, anything that has to be obtained in a dungeon (or a raid) should be something the crafter brings back to their station (like how Legion alchemy required you to get a thing from the Aszuna (sp) dungeon. Crafters should just be able to craft, and if they want to do instanced content, it should be because they want to, not because they have to.
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In dragonflight there was one easy recipe for every profession that would get you to 100 with little or no work orders. Tailoring was the chef’s hat I believe and Inscription was the rolling pin and enchanting was just pretty basic since you didn’t need any work orders at all. Rep recipes weren’t hard to obtain.
And they already have plans for PvP recipes to drop from bgs and highly unlikely that is going to change. However, I really wish they would include patterns as part of the region wide auction house because right now some servers people just buy them all out and jack up the prices.
I think you are right here. If we’re maxed in our trees and can guarantee rank 5 at max everything including rank 3 mats, we can use concentration to use rank 2 (or even rank 1?) quality mats.
In DF, I got ahead early on when rank 2 mats might cost 2-3k to attempt with inspiration, versus the 20k+ for rank 3 mats. I love that the problem with inspiration is gone with concentration, because it was REALLY challenging explaining to customers why 41% Inspiration procs would save them money this way. (In hindsight, I could’ve simplified the explanation by just guaranteeing at some price, but inspiration procs were wildly swingy. At ~35% inspiration my max recraft was above 10 recrafts. I really never trusted this to be an accurate evaluation of percent chance to craft.
The changes are all fine for gear crafting, but what about consumables?
My fear with the lack of inspiration (or even pooling mettle) is that Q2 mats are going to feel very useless very quickly.
Basically it will be Q3 or bust, unless you have a full concentration bar, in which case buy enough mats to deplete the bar and wait until next time. If an rng proc was barely enough to keep a q2 in check, imagine what will happen when it becomes tied to a time-bound resource (concentration).
I think along with these changes they should consider changing consumables so that quality impacts duration instead of power (e.g. 15 minute, 30 minute, 1hr phials). In this scenario, q1, q2 phials may have uses (dungeons) vs. q3 phials (raids). The knock on effect is that q1/q2 mats are more useful, and early gathering doesn’t feel like a complete waste of time.
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I’m on the fence for consumables. I’ll at least say concentration for consumables should be an improvement over inspiration pre max spec’d. I have a ridiculous spreadsheet to tell me if smelting obsidian seared and primal molten ingot is profitable, and honestly never felt like it was correct. I’d much prefer a definite answer for less overall potential profit at current market rates.
I think this impact would benefit concentration more at max levels. If Q2 mats may go down at the same rate that gathering skill increases, maybe this issue gets offloaded to new gatherers and less so to those who focus on gathering. Do we know blizzards stance on what max gathering trees/gear vs Q3 mats looks like?
This might not be the majority opinion, but I think the difference in stats between Q2 and Q3 is a player perception issue. If the prices are absurdly different between Q2 and Q3, they might reevaluate how they consume Q2 vs Q3 (imagining reclear bosses and full clear, or push time in M+ to bump score). Price difference between Q2 and Q3 will benefit your concentration like my smelting example in terms of simpler, clearer ROI, and might reduce demand on Q3. I haven’t looked at concentration for consumables, I would hope that you can make more Q3 consumables than Q3 gear per craft (or per day/week).
The alloys and ingots are interim mats not consumables, so technically not the same thing. Your point is noted though.
Sort of. I’m thinking more in terms of month 6. There is a mix of folks fully maxed out profs and folks still working on it (or starting). How do we make it so q1/q2 mats have a place in the economy? Inspiration sort of did this. Time-restricted concentration can too, but due to its nature means it will be far less impactful.
Given that, in both DF and in TWW, gathering is kind of useless until you can start getting q3. Again, aside from xpac launch when it is always lucrative (I’m talking 3-6 months out).
It is not the majority opinion. It has been proven wrong time and again. Even a 10% power differential makes the lower quality item “trash” in the players eyes. It is silly, but it has been this way for over a decade. At least having it impact duration may make it a bit more tenable.
You can. The blue post said as much. It will still be an issue though. Doesn’t matter what number they come up with, it will be a barrier.
There is an unlearned recipes list, that shows exactly what still has skill-ups, and exactly where to learn the recipes. I wish more people would use it, but they seemingly don’t. With the exception of alchemy, every crafting profession had a way from knowledge points to get to 100, and with the exception of Leatherworking, every crafting profession had a way to get to 100 without using sparks or mettle. None of them required rare drop recipes to hit 100.
The profession knowledge trader was added in 10.1.5, which was around when a lot of players would have started hitting cap. Only people who rushed ahead or were very dilligent with their weeklies were capped for a substantial time before then. For the majority of the playerbase, there’s never really been a timeframe where gaining profession knowledge was totally useless.
I think that’s mentioned in the blue post here:
I think this is also mentioned in the blue post here:
Presumably (hopefully) this will include dungeon and raid drops, but also you didn’t need to run dungeons and raids to still learn the patterns that dropped from them. They were purchasable on the auction house. Rare drop recipes have a few economic benefits: First, they give raiding guilds a way to fund their guild banks outside of selling boosts or BOEs. Second, they restrict the supply of crafters who can craft that item, which allows them to be better compensated for whatever item it is.
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Having just messed with JC on the beta, i am also a fan of how much clearer the gem tree is in terms of getting the point across. However, I do believe that it needs to have the number of points in that tree reduced greatly. In Dragonflight, a jewelcrafter could max out gems, rings, necks, inspiration, and resourcefulness with a total of 410 knowledge points. As of right now on the beta, the gem tree alone requires a total of 410 knowledge points to fully unlock. For a comparison, blacksmiths can fully unlock every point in armorsmithing, put 40/40 into everburning forge, 20/20 into ingenuity, AND have 5 points left over to make progress in resourcefulness for the same cost.
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It’s not that bad… each quality stack stacks up to 1,000. If you have 15 stacks of 1,000 herbs in your bags you just need to do something with them and stop hoarding them. They are meant to be used, or sell them. This is a complete non-issue for most players.
Testing alchemy
Can the meticulous Experimentation not blow us up; its not very meticulous if i’m still being flown across the room at 1 hp.
It also (in testing, but rng is rng) has the same success rate as normal experimentation; with the acuity cost and 2 day lock out i think it probably should be a guaranteed recipe learn, at least until we have all the basic unlocks, if they’re doing toxic-esq special potions again those make sense to have a bit of rng.
The specialization tree could also use some more flask or potions unlocked through it.
The fact that i can go deep into the flask specialization tree while rng made 80% of my recipe unlocks potions is the opposite of the early specialization gameplay i think is intended.
If a few more of the basic flasks and potions were moved into skilling up their respective trees that would be a quick fix.
the relevant ingredients change is nice, but with so many recipes having overlapping ingredients i dont feel like you can really go after 1 specific recipe.
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You can hit that number easily. Doesn’t need to be 1k stacks.
5 gem types x 2 varieties (blue/green) x 3 qualities + 3 diamond qualities + 2 (the other ores that get kicked back). Then the ores themselves you are prospecting. You will see when you prospect a large number of stacks.
Milling you run into similar issues, between the herbs varieties x quality (input) and then pigment varieties x qualities (output). Though your herbs are likely all the same quality.
Qualities are kind of core to the revamp, so I doubt anything will happen but I assume that is where this person is coming from.
Also, it would be nice if you could prospect/mill more than 1k at a time. I can click “craft” and go until I either dc from inactivity or run out of mats. So why do I have to keep clicking “prospect” to start 1k stacks, then again at around ~30 or so, then again at around ~1-5? Oh and also, then combine the stacks for the overflow from resourcefulness procs.
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To add onto what everyone has said here, would it be possible to allow Blacksmiths to craft again, please?
I’m stuck and can’t really do much other than make weapon stones. Which, yeah. I’d love to get some gear crafted to see how it impacts my character.
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Would love a blue response on this. ‘Yes we’re working on it.’ ‘No it’s not a priority at this time.’
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I noticed that while levelling blacksmithing in the beta, there is a strange issue regarding ironclaw alloy creation. It apparently requires you to use an ironclaw alloy in order to make one. How is this possible? AM I missing something here?
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Looks like I stick to gathering. This complicated nonsense is annoying. I tend to craft for myself only, and relying on orders to level is the single stupidest thing I’ve seen.
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Didnt say you couldnt hit that with some mats. But what do you do when you are done prospecting all that ore? You just let it sit in your bags? At worst, you store it in your reagent bank, which is there specifically for that purpose. And even me, as one of the biggest wow hoarders in existence, was never able to completely fill the entirety of a character’s reagent bank with multi quality stuff from Dragonflight. The current expansion reagents actually have value and unless you are literally just not doing anything with them, they wont just sit.
Maybe they’ll have NPC crafting orders for the recipes that give you skill-ups, so it’s still doable solo?