Community Council discussion on Hunter design


You want, you dream, but then reality comes smacking you in face (usually a cat paw).

Yea, i think most hunters would say the same thing. If i am tasked with killing the playform adds on neth, i dont care if my pet instantly shows up there. When i push my KC, that pet better freaking hit the target ON TIME. He better use his basic attack that i have macroed into the spell too because we all know blizz hasnt ever had pets working correctly and we have to command the pet to do everything.


Well, I did not include anything related to DPS in my proposed concept, other than Primal Rage. You said “if they were to bring a pet talent tree back, but sans the DPS talents, it would be a waste of time”.

I ask: Why?

When I look at a pet talent tree, I would very much prefer if it included options for me in terms of utility and defensives, to allow me to choose which one I think would be the most useful for a particular encounter.

If you then decide to also include one side of talents suited to increase your throughput, then the encounter doesn’t really matter anymore, you will always want to pick as many of, if not all of those, purely because of your role.

I’m just wondering why talents that boost your dps have to be a part of the pet talent tree itself.

Well, thanks for asking, but the thought of having a none-dps oriented tree just sounds, well, boring.

In raiding and m+, pet defensives dont matter. Even if blizz made them matter, it would be a crapshow trying to keep you and your pet alive during raid encounters. Plus, try to tell your healers they need to heal your pets as well when they can barely keep you alive.

Im one of those people who would rather have choice then “equality’” and what i mean is that id rather have cool, interchangeable, and meaningful dps choices even though they will prob always be picked and will be meta then i woild having no choice at all like right meow. Just having pixels following you around so you can hit KC but be forced to micromanaged its health bc we received a pure defensive/utility tree is just garbo.
I mean, you might pvp and thats all good, but perhaps you want to talent bleeds instead of poisons bc of the enemy team. Or you choose a tank ability instead of an major on-use pet attack bc you know you wont have the uptime for it. There are still crucial choices that will be made even if there are dps talents.

As someone who generally prefers unique pets that was an awful response.

You can have unique pets while not gutting them gameplay wise to the point that nobody uses 90% of them in literally any content.

The current pet system does exactly that. And no amount of tuning or balancing will ever fix that.

As some people already mentioned u cant have abilities like bloodlust for pve and masters call/ mortal strike for pvp as ablitities in your family/ability tree and expect people to ever run more than 3 pets for all content.

This current system does also not even do a good job at making pets feel unique at all if u compare it to older systems which we had in cata and mop.

Pets used to actually have unique abilities like a spider had a 4 sec root, Birds of Prey had a disarm, goats had curse of tongues effect, nether rays an interrupt and the exotic stone hounds a BR etc.

I can still remember all of those wheras pets rn are so watered down that besides the few family + ability specializations which are actually playable i have no idea what or which ability belongs to which pet.

saying that hunter is a ranged class is the same as saying that priest is a healer class.

shadow priest can be dps in contrast to the other two specs that are healers just as hunter survival can be melee in contrast to the other two specs that are ranged.

just stop ignoring wardens, shadow hunters, Huln, you’re just embarrassing yourself.

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A better way of wording it is that we have 2 specs that have no range-based limitation/handicap and 1 that does as of Legion.

The Hunter class is still very much built around the ranged weapon. It’s our class icon, it’s the common foundation for much of the toolkit even stuff available to Survival (e.g. Kill Shot, the covenant abilities), we start with one at level 1. Blizzard just sets up this bizarre status quo where BM and MM sensibly build off the core class identity while SV deviates and does something else… something that ultimately represents a handicap. A better comparison is taking away Stealth from one Rogue spec. Yes, it would then be more unique in that it doesn’t have Stealth while the others do… but that’s just a tokenistic handicap, isn’t it?


Sorry for the lengthy reply. :upside_down_face:

Hmm, that’s quite interesting to hear. For me, it would be the exact opposite. For me, as a raider, if there ever was a section in the pet talent tree that focused on throughput, in practicality, it would be the same as not having a choice, despite how it technically still would be a choice. Essentially, for me, it would then always come down to "hmm, is there any utility or defensive here that is absolutely crucial, that I simply cannot make it through the encounter without? Or something that would help the healers out to a point where it outweighs not taking X amount of throughput-talents? And if there was, I would just be annoyed over neither choice feeling like the right one. It would effectively remove the choice from me, I would always “have to” go for the throughput-talents. For me, that would very much make it a boring design.

Well, first off, I agree that any scenario like that, where pets would potentially be as “squishy”, that wouldn’t be the way to go.

Having said that, I would look at pet defensives and utility in a different way. I don’t know if you saw the tooltips for the talents I proposed in my aformentioned concept. Obviously, it’s just one example, and it could certainly be done in a different way. And also, like with most things in-game, based on the encounter/scenario, there will always be the optimal choice.

First off, my thought is that the passive effect all pets currently get, Avoidance, which reduces the distance at which enemies will detect your pet, along with it also reducing AoE damage taken by your pet by 90%. This passive should not be a part of a talent tree. In most end-game activities, if our pets don’t have this passive, it would be a nightmare to play with them. So it should just be given to all pets automatically, while leveling. IMO.

Here you have the tooltips + image, for my proposed design

  • In this concept, you would have access to a total of 16 talent points to spend.
  • As you can see, the choice nodes are all based on picking one of the abilities that are currently tied to each individual pet spec(Primal Rage, Survival of the Fittest, Master’s Call).
  • You can choose in which order, at what level, you would like to play with either one of those core abilities. Or you could just respec if you want a different one.
  • When you reach max level/all talent points spent, you will be able to make use of all three core pet abilities at once. The variation would be in the additional talents, and improvements to those core pet abilities.
  • The “paragon traits” are meant to allow you to further customize your core abilities(Primal Rage, Survival of the Fittest, Master’s Call).
  • As for the individual paths, after each choice node, you have the option to pick a certain path of passives. + The last row, which provides 3 different active abilities to pick between.
  • To an extent, this could ofc change depending on your choice of spec, and more.
    • The left “path” contains talents that are mostly focused on self-sustainability, in a way that is particularly useful in solo content.
    • The middle “path” instead focuses on certain defensive traits that are more useful in group-based PvE content.
    • The right “path” provides talents that make your pet stronger against incoming CC, such as in PvP.
  • 16 talent points in total will allow for you to get all 3 core abilities, and spend 2 points on paragon traits for each core ability, + pick one of the active abilities at the bottom. Except for the fact that you wouldn’t be able to pick talents from multiple paths, in the same bracket, at the same time(like the image, you’re free to spend the points as you want.

To an extent, I definitely agree.

Again, I agree. My thought was more that, it doesn’t necessarily have to be either the one, or the other. Would my proposed design/concept achieve this, a case of interesting choices that don’t require the inclusion of throughput talents to be enough? I will leave that for other players to decide, but in my mind it would.

Again, I agree. This wouldn’t be what I was going for with my proposed concept though. Not at all.

There certainly can be, in some scenarios. Although, in PvE, most of the time, this wouldn’t be the case. In theory, you can ofc design talents that would amount to this. But in practicality, more often, it would result in an unintuitive and overcomplicated design that many players who aren’t as interested in optimization, simply wont invest in.

Oh boy the mental gymnastics are flaring up today already.

In the real world Jerry, you cant always get what you want. Im sorry the game devs hurt you so deeply. I know how you feel. My dog passed away recently and its almost as tragic as seeing you so emotionally drained at knowing you will have yet another expansion not having your way. But its okay Jerry, Maybe you will get em next time little buddy. Hang in there Champ!

LOL thank god your mind can do all these leaps because I know your too scrawny to jog down the street.

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But it is a class mostly based around ranged attacks.

Survival’s combat flow is all over the place. There’s no coherency. Why am I wailing on someone in melee to trigger an enhanced ranged attack? Go count the ranged abilities in survival’s kit VS the melee. There’s certainly (poor) vision there, and it’s put together terrible.

Survival’s melee weapon might as well be a stat-stick.


Thats like saying pallys are built around shields but ret sucks because it uses a two handed weapon, which it doesnt.

Not really. It makes sense. People who usually say this dont actually play it.


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Eh? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a msurv opponent or anything, but that comparison isn’t even close. Survival does really use mostly ranged abilities. Your dps is only about 15% lower if you just stand at ranged the whole time (granted 15% is significant enough to justify not doing it). So the rotation does mostly revolve around ranged attacks.


I mean, you said it yourself. You’re the best at it.


with what, the tier 4 set bonus and wildfire bomb legendary? Thats the only reason. The whole play style is about doing some range, harpoon in to melee and then disengage out of combat. People really dont get it.

Weak response

Except that priest baseline hasn’t really changed form Vanilla. 2 Heals and 1 DPS.

Hunter was ranged for all three specs. Multiple ranged attacks and few melee attacks that were only used when someone got in your face. That makes Hunter a ranged class.

The adventurers can’t be wardens or shadow hunters. Huln and Rexxar are heroes that aren’t confined by the class.

Hunters in WoW prior to Legion were defined by ranged damage, pets, and traps. End of story. What happened to Hunters from Legion onward was a mistake.


Look at the buttons that you push. Count how many can be used at ranged. I get the skirmish playstyle, but you tried to argue that the spec isn’t built mostly around ranged abilities. It is, but it has enough important melee abilities to make it a skirmisher, but don’t pretend like it’s based around a ton of melee abilities.


Just adding my take as a lone wolf mm. I can’t speak for anyone else. For me, I would much rather other things for mm like more lone wolf survivability and the ability to lust without a pet.

Again, for me only, not all MM players: I don’t really care for pets and they kind of ruin my sneaky sniper fantasy. They make me feel like I lose focus - I would wonder about what the pet is doing and they might be loud, blowing my cover. I’d rather not call them at all, and if possible, not even tame them.


While I’m here. I want to point out that MM is going to feel terrible to play because of the high focus costs. Currently, we have the crutches of our tier set, vigil legendary, and a strong interrupt focus conduit. Right now, the spec feels great. We are losing all of these. It is going to be really frustrating and unfun if we have to spend 30% of the time casting steady shot again.


Hey, quick question. Can you ask blizz why the hell they decided to not give surv the bomb leggo on their spec tree but instead gave us some crappy bs “deadly duo” talent on the bomb side of the tree?
Bc the way i see it, they royally f’ed up surv. Heck, they SHOULD have given the bomb leggo instead of the garbage nesingwary’s trapping apparatus which is horrible to play, clunky, and makes the spec basically unplayable.


Someone please tell those posting on the CC forum that they are just validating blizz’s horrific dumpsterfire talent trees.
I get the one guy likes melee, ok, but he does nothing to point out the massive issues with the surv tree.
All they pointed out was utility is ok. What about hunters horrible survivability? We have to invest multiple points just to get back where we were. What about the horrible amount of 3 point talents just to increase dmg? Why do we only get 35 choices, most are pointless, while other trees are over 45 choices? Why are we forced to take utility choices for revelant dps talents further down the tree? Who in their right mind decided to add deadly duo, crystal, and nesingwary’s instead of the bomb leggo, and other actually GOOD choices?
See, this is why people are fed up with the CC and blizz. Instead of legitimately bringing up valid points like i have here, they push personal opinions knowing that blizz wont see this post but will see the posts on the CC.