Community Council discussion on Hunter design

This talent tree looks like a drug fueled love child of /wowg/ and /b/ fueled by weeb tumblr teenage fanfic.

Please, just close the forums, step away from computer, go outside and find some grass to touch.


hell ya! Kombat Kitteh is da bomb! literally!

I expect a player to have some context when picking talents. Make it feel more natural. Really not that hard to comprehend.

There is NOTHING fun in the alpha tree. PERIOD.

Yet, you didnt refute my response.

Alpha tree is literally a “increase dmg/focus/KC reset/KS” THATS IT. its more basic then your mom at an 80s dance party.

My tree, sure, its over the top. It has too much narrative, but it has what the alpha tree fails miserably at.
It has themes.
It has direction
It is exciting
its fun
it allows for a viable aoe build without being forced to spend 80% of the time in ST
it allows for a viable ST build without being forced into aoe talents
there is synergy between talents
there is synergy between the surv tree and the generic tree
it defines new demensions to the char past the basic autoattack/abilities structure
it actually still has many talents that are found in the alpha tree, all it did was take out the DEAD talents and replaced them with better ones
it feeds into the notion that surv hunters shouldnt be the melee bm spec
it has more depth then SH, SS, KC, spam MB, KS
It ACTUALLY provides substantial defensives that hunters need
it GIVES back to the group/raid, providing viable group utility.

But you didnt see any of that, did you? Nope, no you didnt. All you saw was a few walls of text and you closed it out.

maybe not for you, and just stamping your feet and endlessly posting “I DON’T LIKE IT! CHANGE IT NOW!!!” is neither constructive nor interesting to read


I’m not reading fanfic without getting paid to do so.

You enjoy alpha? Are you seriously going to be THAT fanboi that likes alpha surv? Plus, how is telling me that my ideas arent worth being put forward yet when i do its ‘not constructive nor interesting to read’?

Yea, I was actually working on a good abilities feedback post but i keep getting distracted.

Its literally just a little context to connect one ability with the next. Plus, some of the abilities i am not very good at explaining so they are longer then intended. Most of it could be shortened considerably.

But proves my point.

To be fair Ingvaeonic has given critical feedback about the current SV tree.

Also to be fair, these “kitteh” talents are pretty cringe.

On one hand: I understand the pragmatic approach of giving feedback on iterating the current design direction rather than suggesting entire reworks that won’t happen. On the other hand, I really don’t like the idea of validating the current design direction of SV because it’s bad at a core level. I, for one, am sick of hundreds of hours of development time being sunk into reinventing SV every other expansion.

And I agree with Ingvaeonic that the late praise for SV’s talent tree design looks like incredible copium. The BoP build from BFA was already pretty controversial for the small playerbase the spec had at the time and it seems they’re quadrupling down on the idea of playing around CDs and extending them as much as possible. I sincerely doubt many people will find it fun and the “at least it’s interesting” takes seem misplaced. People said the same about Legion SV before it released and look how that turned out.


We don’t know what the new BoP is going to be, and the Coordinated Kill talent extending Spearhead got nerfed this build, so I think if anything they’re pulling back from the idea that you should be able to infinitely extend your cooldowns.

Your tree replaces KC with Raptor Strike as a generator and then adds a bunch of CDR to Wildfire Bomb and Flanking Strike. Everything else is a nonsensical passive talent that does not enhance gameplay or affect your rotation in any way. This is literally the Dragonflight tree with a bunch of overpowered passive fanfiction talents.

You discover ancient ruins on your travels. Walking through them they infuse you with an unknown magic, increasing the damage done by Raptor Strike by 15% and increases increases your pet’s special attack by 10%.

How is this different from any of the passive damage increases on the Survival tree that you hate so much?


When you articulate it like that I can see the value in a talent like that. I think a talent on the mongoose bite side that has that kind of interaction would be a wonderful addition and yes solve the KS in the MB window.

In the trees I have posted (and the next version I will be posting once the next round of changes for SV come out) I have had a talent where Kill Command reduces flanking strikes by X seconds.
Not Kill Command resets for the love of God… This would be an attempt to make pressing Kill Command feel less bad. Fury Warriors do not feel bad about hitting Raging Blow to generate rage. Paladins dont feel bad for using Judgement to generate Holy Power. I physically ache when I have to stop hitting my target with my massive weapon so that I can instead point at it emphatically…

Lets pray to God its tied to Lacerate and not Kill Command resets…

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my chief issue with sv as it exists currently is:

a) lack of decent defensives/mitigation
b) low amount of dps buttons/cds

in df however they’ve given the class a decent defensive cd, and in sv’s case it was given more buttons to press and so it’s a step up for me personally. i don’t think it’s perfect or that it’s as good as it can be, i think more can be done to improve it but the changes the tree has gotten have been steps in the right direction


How do you frown on your pet literally strapping on a harness and throwing bombs and explosive traps everywhere?
You tell Terminator Kitteh with lazer eyes that it wont be able to kill its target before it stops the future from happening.
My point is that this is a game. Its supposed to be fun. You have have valid suggestions while still having a good time doing it. We know blizz is never going to even open it up, so why not give it crazy names.

I agree with you that surv tree is faulty to its core. Its not going anywhere. People freaked out when blizz put damage on SH and CA when, in reality, that damage really doesn’t change anything.
This is pretty obvious when you see CA only affects bombs while SH only affects RS/MB. So, your not getting an overall buff to all your abilities, you get a little buff to one or two abilities.
On top of it, and what most people dont realize, is that CA/SH only works when your TARGETING YOUR PETS TARGET. So you go jumping into combat using CA as a charge but a boss add hits you and your pet hits that target instead. Guess what, you just SCREWED your entire burst window. On top of all of it, the CDR you get for your bombs is based on your pets BASIC ATTACKS.

So, guess what, if your trying to get to the targets on the last boss on narthia but there is no path available AND/OR your pet dies, that CD is completely dead.

Raptor strike as a generator makes tons of sense.
removes relying on your pet for focus regen
fixes the RS/MB point issue
it gets rid of KC and removes becoming bm melee spec

Actually, you obviously only looked at some of the talents, apparently just some of the middle left ones.
in fact, the left tree focuses on bombs/flanking strike. it also focuses on pets.
the right tree focuses on MB/butchery with lacerate.
the right tree is where we see a change. Instead of just receiving buff to this or cdr on that, it allows for talents to replace basic boring weapons with cool affects without taking away the weapon itself. Plus, the talents scale with ilvl, you still get the weapon damage, you still get the sec stats and if there is a proc on the weapon you get that too. On top of that, there is tons of synergy between them and other talents.

While my tree is completely over the top, one or two dmg increases is ok. The problem is that the alpha tree is 90% dmg increases.

Actually, the word “replace” is the wrong word. I should say 'infuse".

Like, for instance, who in their right mind wants a “stab 2 white damage” instead of "
Chance on hit: Morgenstern swings around your body and slams its chained ball into the targets head, dealing 50% attack power in damage and 25% attack power in damage to any enemy in the way. While the enemy’s head is bashed in, it deals 10% less damage and increases its cast time by 10%. Lasts 10 seconds.

When wielding this weapon, the appearance of your weapon changes to a red ancestral Morning Star, wtih a wooden handle the length of a two handed spear with a spiked iron ball connected to the handle with chain…"

Like, who doesnt want that? Some cool infused weapon with a chance on hit AND a cool looking transmog! (well, mediocre transmog bc lets be honest, its blizz)

We just differ on this, and that’s alright – happy to agree to disagree. Personally, I like having the Kill Command reset mechanic lead to something other than just more Kill Commands. I think this current tier set went way too far with it, but I think it’s actually going to feel pretty good once we can shed the current tier set and tie a few different things to Kill Command resets in different areas of our kit, like Fury of the Eagle cd reduction in aoe, or Spearhead cd extension in single target. I’d really love to be able to play test it to see if adding in the Flayed Shot mechanic to it will feel like overkill, because I’m not convinced right now that it will, but I acknowledge that it might and that we simply have different views on this.

Just to summarize the part we agree on, and correct me if I’ve got this wrong:

  • Bring back the Flayed Shot mechanic
  • Make Kill Shot interactive with the Mongoose Fury window so it doesn’t feel like a waste to use procs in single target
  • Implement a cd reduction on Flanking Strike in the single target rotation
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Well, its easy to say its a step in the right direction with how bad it was in the first place.

Lets be honest, survival started out with basically nothing. Perhaps that was intended so these tiny little upgrades mean something to you.

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I could sum the problems in all the Hunter Trees with 2 statements. At risk of sounding like a broken record.

Underfunded Budget. Aggravated by wonky Patthing and deconstructed previous abilitys.

A lack of spec specific New or returning interactions.

Speaking from a BM and much as I like it standpoint, the only New item is Kill Cleave. That’s it.


You are correct. As for Kill Command Resets. When it comes to reliance, I am a static guy. When I press this button I personally do not want some wonky percent chance that it will allow me to continue my rotation or help my rotation. I want to know that it is going to allow me to continue my rotation because I did the right sequence correctly and I want to know that when I press the button it will in some way ‘reliably’ help me in my rotation out. Now I know that Energy does not equal Focus. Buuut…For comparison. Assassination rogues have a talent called Venomous Wounds that gives 7 Energy back per tick of Rupture or Garrote. Then it also gives Energy back to the target if they die before either runs out. There is no %chance that it will give energy back when ticking, There isnt a %chance that it will refund energy if the target dies. It’s constant and static. That is 14 energy every 2 seconds without having to spend GCD’s when you have it rolling using 2 abilities that you just get for free to generate Energy for you on top of your passive energy gain. Or take for instance Vicious Venoms: Ambush and Mutilate do 20% more damage as nature damage. Not %chance on Mutilate (a builder they get for free mind you). Flat, Static. For Kill Command…It isn’t the damage that is the problem, that gets fixed in tuning, it is the design around an unreliable mechanic that feels back to press in the first place. For all of its lackluster damage and weird extra attack speed boost, Bloodseeker actually isn’t a bad design. However when we see things like BFA Azerite traits like Venomous Fangs or Dire Consequences we can see that there are passive bonus to KC that they could be implementing instead of tying it to KC resets.
Thats my rant.

Now for another point to see if you agree.
Adding the Legion Talent: Mortal Wounds. Lacerate has a % chance to give a free Raptor Strike or Mongoose Bite.

This is not static I know I just ranted about static vs chance. But in this case it is something that I am already doing not something I am reliant on. I GET to cast Lacerate. I am FORCED to cast KC…if I want focus back this century… It is a % chance that helps me/assists with my rotation.

Let me know what you think.


Dude you have a single talent giving the potential for multiple stacking applications of a 30% HP HoT, in a 5yd radius AoE. That talent alone would make healers irrelevant, just stack SV Hunters and the tank becomes immortal.

In no way is that good game design for an MMO. For a single player ARPG, sure, the power fantasy is important and over the top stuff is fun. For an MMO where 19 other people in your raid also want to feel like big damn heroes, it sucks.


Multi-shot can’t be baseline because of Survival. Arcane Shot should be shot the same method and Serpent Sting is for Survival.