I agree. I just cant see why blizz continues to stick something that has been and continues to be the ultimate failed spec. The tree proves it will continue to fail. Short of been cheap and lazy, i just dont know.
I would look at sidewinders, serpent spread, black arrow, instant or castable on the move aimed shot, old explosive shot and aspect of the fox
Problem with a more melee centered rotation is a lack of melee centered sustain and migation. Theres a reason why we we play a hybrid play style. We simply dont do well toe to toe with other melee for extended periods of melee engagement. Blizz would have to retool survs kit if we lose the ranged combat effectiveness. I simply dont see them doing that atm.
I’d rather have them focus on things that don’t add any value to the tree or existing problems, ex;
- Binding Shackles is worthless in its current form
- Nobody wants NTA in its current form
- Bloodseeker has no real interaction with the spec.
- Born to be Wild is underwhelming in its current form. Top end shld to 30% cdr.
- Imp Tranq should be baseline
- VV and Quick shot are terrible
- WFI needs to move up and to the center of the tree. It should probably be a capstone imo.
- Tying interactions to KC resets is terrible design, please stop.
- Nobody will ever pick Energenic ally, explosive expert or intense focus in current form.
- Sharp Edges is dramatically undervalued. Should be 10/20%.
- have 2 multiple point capstones that dont do much but soak points.
Most of all;
- More pet customization so we can pick a pet and tool it for the content we like to do.
This is something I posted from another thread. Sums up pretty much all my issues with the existing surv and hunter trees.
8 Likes
That was a really fantastic post, Watermist, and I super appreciate the link to my post—very kind and unexpected. Aside from the things I cover in there, I actually think the Survival tree just needs a little tweaking and it will be in a really good spot. I’m aware that that may be an unpopular opinion here.
As for wanting more buttons, the aoe rotation is going to be pretty hectic as it is. With Wildfire Infusions basically baseline, Fury of the Eagle reducing the cd on bombs on crits, Kill Command resets reducing the cd on Fury of the Eagle, Carve/Butchery reducing the cd on Bombs and Flanking Strike, Serpent Sting spreading, likely with Raptor Strike and simultaneously popping Latent Poison stacks… and all of this before we get to active abilities chosen in the Class Tree—which admittedly I think will only be Explosive Shot for aoe situations. But the point is that having another ability that’s either just press on cd for damage or a maintenance buff/debuff that we have to spread on every target would be too much clutter, in my opinion.
The single target rotation is maybe a little bland, especially with the way the new Viper’s Venom works, where we’ll basically have 100% uptime on Serpent Sting just from Mongoose Bite spam. I do think that with Tip of the Spear and Mongoose Bite together, the Mongoose Fury windows are at least going to be more interesting, but I think that we really could’ve used some sort of Flanking Strike cd reduction in the single target rotation, not the aoe rotation. Additionally, Spearhead is something I’m incredibly excited for, and I hope that they keep the cd extension in a spot where it feels potent, but not Birds of Prey level 100% uptime. Even with the Death Chakram pick on single target, and even if Flanking Strike got some cdr to be used basically in every window, I do think the rotation could use something else.
One of the biggest points of interest remaining in the Survival tree for me centers on Explosives Expert. The Kill Shot proc mechanic has been taken out of the Survival spec tree, so what value does this really have outside of execute range—and in execute range, is this really valuable enough to be worth 2 talent points over say, 40% damage on Serpent Sting, Arcane Shot, and Kill Shot, for example?
So, what I would like to see is the Kill Shot proc added back into the tree, and I think there are several ways that Blizzard could do this pretty seamlessly:
- For the least amount of added active abilities, add the proc to Shrapnel Bomb’s bleed. Make the proc chance stack per stack of the bleed. This, with Explosives Expert, would speed up the aoe rotation following blue bombs, while adding in just one ability. This probably doesn’t give much to the single target rotation, and we probably wouldn’t want to cast the Kill Shot over a 5 stack Mongoose Bite, so perhaps compensate with “Kill Shot extends the duration of Mongoose Fury by 1.5 seconds.” And perhaps for added single target interaction, or even priority target/funnel interaction, you could have Kill Shot extend or refresh the bleed from Shrapnel Bomb on that target to maintain uptime in between Bomb cycles;
- Add Lacerate back in, and have it work like Flayed Shot. Give it a relatively high focus cost, and/or don’t make it do a ton of damage so that you won’t feel the need to spread it to every single mob in a 5-8 pack pull. Two or three targets should be the sweet spot, but one should feel good enough. Again for single target, I’d add some Kill Shot interaction with Mongoose Bite; or
- Add Chakrams back in (normal Chakrams, I was sad to see them go) have them apply a Flayed Shot type bleed to all targets, make it so that Kill Shot procs can stack to two. Could even make this a choice node with Lacerate and tune Chakrams to be the aoe choice and Lacerate to clearly excel in single target.
To summarize: let’s be very careful what we ask for. Asking for more active abilities for the sake of having more buttons to press is not quite the right approach, in my opinion. Let’s ask for more interactivity where it’s necessary. For the spec as a whole, Survival would benefit from reimplementation of the Kill Shot proc mechanic. The aoe rotation doesn’t need another button, but if it had to have one, something like Lacerate—tuned in such a way that maintaining it on two or three targets is optimal—or Chakrams, both applying a Flayed Shot type debuff would be good additions. The single target rotation could use another button, so again something like Lacerate—again applying a Flayed Shot type debuff, but more importantly, it could use a Flanking Strike cdr, and if it gets some sort of Kill Shot proc, it would likely need another node that makes Kill Shot interact with Mongoose Bite somehow like extending the Mongoose Fury window.
1 Like
Naw, the main problem is you have a bunch of fanbois and rExXaR wannabes up top telling blizz, if i recall the other day, that the spec is “near perfect” which is why they havent made very many changes lately… while all of us down here are screaming at blizz to scrap the crap and fix it.
But nope, just another xpansion of garbo msv being at the bottom for the 1% to pick up after they are done with progression to mess around with.
More I look at the surv tree the more Im thinking its design goal is inherently flawed. The way the it lays out is single target melee (with some pet stuff), aoe capability (other pet stuff) and a hodgepodge of talents trying to bring it together in the center. Its misses the essence of what most of us like about surv and the divides of what we like.
Some of us, like myself, love the dot/control melee/range aspect of it. Multi DoT with SS, Flayed Shot, WFB -->use traps and pet cc to control → then when its advantageous, get into melee range with our pet for big dmg. Most of us pvp this way.
Other ppl like the physical melee aspect of it. Chuck a bomb → get into melee with your pet → rip a bleed into 'em and start unleashing with FS/RS/MB/Butchery → Wear 'em down with aggression and finish with big hits from Fury of the Eagle. Thats more what the original msurv was like in Legion.
Then there’s the middle where players enjoyed a mix of different ways. Maybe some like muti doting but still like big st melee hits form MB/MF. Maybe others like physical melee style and enjoy Latent poisons ability to stack dmg on an off target.
In the end, I think dividing the tree into physical melee and range multi-doting capacity with the center bridging the two styles makes more sense than dividing it by aoe and st.
2 Likes
I think the design of both the class and SV spec trees are set up specifically to prevent people from playing SV as ranged. You could almost fudge it depending on the artifical ranged/melee ability limitations and a couple of talents being moved this way or that. Left side should be ranged, middle utility/multitarget, right melee.
Edit: Just looking through some of the other class trees… Why do we have to talent into our interrupt? Same with Tar Trap? It’s weird that things that have been basic to the Hunter CLASS now require a talent to use. I understand why hybrid classes need to have a talent for interrupts (looking at you, Holy Pally) and why Lock has it as a talent (it was contingent on a specific pet) but Hunter? Why? There should only be a talent to get the focus back.
1 Like
Thank you Watermist.
A very well thought out, eloquent and well delineated post on Alpha Forums Hunter Feedback.
I Like how it even points to Other Classes suffering from the same General issues.
Looking forwards to the BM Critique.
1 Like
Thank You, Watermist!!
I can’t imagine how long that took but your efforts are very appreciated. I love that you started with simple clear facts and comparisons. It was needed.
You have no control over what happens with this information but at least it is being put in a place where we know it can be seen. Now we hope someone takes it seriously.
I am looking forward to the rest of your posts. However it turns out, you are definitely an MVP for hunters, in my opinion.
1 Like
Watermist- THANK YOU for your contributions for us in the Council threads!
One thing I randomly want a shout out for is BLINK STRIKES. Could come back as an active off the GCD or a passive. Easy quality of life feature for getting pets unstuck/across dodgy terrain to their targets.
I had some other ideas in a post- more focused on cool factor or comparable utility with other classes:
Also have been imagining something like a “Signal Horn” ability which grants temporary avoidance for allies and bonus movement speed toward a target bearing Hunter’s Mark for a short time. Thematically it seems cool and it’s kind of a HELL YEAH button push like when Stampede or Rallying Cry go off… Think Boromir blowing the Horn of Gondor scene from LOTR.
ANYWAY. Thanks again for reading through many pages of our griping, musing, & brainstorming and helping distill some of that out into digestible feedback.
1 Like
Thank you Watermist, you laid out the tree bloat argument wonderfully. Looking forward to what you say about BM tree.
My thoughts on BM tree;
Too many multi-point nodes means if I take them because I want them, get no end cap nodes.
Animal Companion - want to see this isolated out, mainly because you know Blizzard isn’t going to fix AC so it only impacts the 2nd pet. It’s position makes me wonder if that is how Blizzard expects a Dire build to play with AC tempering the damage because it’s a 35% reduction to all pets except the main pet.
Aspect of the Beast, Kindred Spirits, Training Expert, and Killer Command should all be 1 point nodes
Swap positions of Flamewalker’s and Cobra Senses, this moves 2 pointer down to 20 point tier and one pointer up into 8 point tier. It also allows easy skip of Flamewalkers which is a very MEH node.
Wild Call and One with the Pack don’t make much sense, tie up 4 points all to have a small chance to reset cooldown of Barbed Shot. These should be 1 point per if they stay.
Thrill of the Hunt, this should not be a 3 point node. Personally I don’t think 3 point node should exist in any talent tree for any class/spec. One point would be ideal.
Stomp should be 1 point.
The above removes seven 2 point nodes and one 3 point node. It allows more freedom in the over 20 tier. We still would have nine 2 point nodes and one 3 point node, for 29 points total in multiple point nodes which is much closer to the “sweet spot” for trees.
Yall already know what I am asking for.
Lacerate.
Kakaroth gets it. Put it back in. Bump the damage up from Legion numbers so that it acts as SV equivalent of Aimed Shot or Kill Command as the big spender. Then. Make it our flayed shot mechanic. Id also like to see a talent like Legions Mortal Strikes where Lacerate could give a free MB. Would help with ST and Mongoose Bite Windows.
Chakrams instead of Barrage. Thats a no brainer and one we would pick every time.
While I am at it.
Kill Command to reduce Flanking Strike Cooldown.
MM has a way to reduce Rapid Fire.
BM has a way to reduce Kill Command and Bestial Wrath.
SV has … Lol
Thanks Watermist! Id love to chat with you in game or on Discord to help with your message about SV as would some others I would assume.
1 Like
Pet spec selection. Not even talking about talent trees here because Blizz can’t get our tree right to begin with so adding pet trees would be impossible.
This season is one of the more restrictive seasons where I need a lust pet that also has mortal wounds. It means I need to run one of 3 pet families, out of all the available options I get to pick 3 that meet both those criteria. If they opened up pet specs a bunch of mortal wounds families also get opened up because I could swap them to also bring hero.
5 Likes
Nvm, I misunderstood what you said.
1 Like
good luck hunters. lots of communication but as long as they keep the BFA MM design the spec is doomed for another 2 years and it will just be BM hunters with like 10 people playing SV after the tier set is gone. dont think this class will ever get back to pre-legion days.
7 Likes
Ok so guys I took the evening to try to fix BM tree just by moving some stuff and adding a few things that wasn’t there but for most things I just reduced them to 1 or 2 moved stuff and I find it much more fluid now. Tell me what you guys think and how we could improve on it.
docs.google. com/document/d/1n_KYHoq_ksMRN3KUFd3Qyp5n033l3P49ovseBZUILvo/edit (Remove the space for the link I dont know how to post picture sorry)
Sorry I did via Photoshop and im not really great at it (But also tried to be quick)
Here is my Idea of the Hunter Tree. I think it would fix a lot of issues.
(1,1) - Bloodseeker (Passive) : Kill Command causes the target to bleed for [Ranged attack power * (0.1) * (4)] damage over 8 sec.
You and your pet gain 10% attack speed for every bleeding enemy within 12 yds.
(1,2) - Barbed Shot (Ability) : Instant 12 sec recharge (1 Charges)
Fire a shot that tears through your enemy, causing them to bleed for [(26.1% of Attack power) * 5] damage over 8 sec.
Sends your pet into a frenzy, increasing attack speed by 30% for 8 sec, stacking up to 3 times.
Generates 20 Focus over 8 sec.
(1,3) - Multi-Shot (Ability) : Fires several missiles, hitting all nearby enemies within 8 yards of your current target for (12.6% of Attack power) Physical damage
Deals reduced damage beyond 6 targets.
(2,1) - Training Expert (Passive) : All pet damage dealt increase by 10%
(2,2) - Pact Tactics (Passive) : Passive focus generation increased by 100%.
(2,3) Flamewaker’s Cobra Sting: (passive) : Cobra Shot has a [15/30]% chance to make your next Kill Command consume no Focus. Two Rank Talent.
(2,4) Beast Cleave: (Passive) : After you Multi-Shot, your pet’s melee attacks also strike all nearby enemies for 75% as much for the next 6 sec. Deals reduced damage beyond 6 targets.
(3,1) Aspect of the Beast: (Passive) : Increases the damage and healing of your pet’s abilities by [15/30]%.
Increases the effectiveness of your pet’s Predator’s Thirst, Endurance Training, and Pathfinding passives by [25/50]%. Two Rank Talent.
(3,2) Killer Command: (Passive) : Kill Command damage increased by 20%
(3,3) Loaded Quiver: (Passive) : Barbed Shot has 1 additional charge.
(3,4) Cobra Senses: (Passive) : Cobra Shot reduces the cooldown of Kill Command by 1.0 sec.
(3,5) Kill Cleave: (Passive) : While Beast Cleave is active, Kill Command now also strikes nearby enemies for 50% of damage dealt.
If Bloodseeker learned, also apply its bleeding to nearby 5 targets.
(4,1) Animal Companion: (Passive) : Your Call Pet additionally summons the first pet from your stable. This pet will obey your Kill Command, but cannot use pet family abilities.
(4,2) Killing Frenzy (Passive) : Your Kill Command critical strike chance is increased by 15% for each stack of Frenzy your pet has.
(4,3) Cobra Senses: (Passive) : Cobra Shot reduces the cooldown of Kill Command by 1.0 sec.
(4,4) Thrill of the Hunt: (Passive) : Barbed Shot increases your critical strike chance by 3% for 8 sec, stacking up to [2/3] time(s). Two Rank Talent.
(4,5) Choice Node:
A Murder of Crows: (Ability) : Summons a flock of crows to attack your target, dealing Physical damage over 15 sec. If the target dies while under attack, A Murder of Crows’ cooldown is reset.
Bloodshed: (Ability) Command your pet to tear into your target, causing your target to bleed for 18 sec and increase all damage taken from your pet by 15% for 18 sec.
(5,1) Serrated Jaws (Passive) : Kill Command has a 40% chance to deal an additional X damage and grant your Pet 5 Focus.
(5,2) Bestial Wrath: (Ability) : Sends you and your pet into a rage, instantly dealing Physical damage to its target, and increasing all damage you both deal by 25% for 15 sec. Removes all crowd control effects from your pet.
(5.3) Wild Call: (Passive) : Your auto shot critical strikes have a 20% chance to reset the cooldown of Barbed Shot.
(6,1) Dire Beast: (Ability) Summons a powerful wild beast that attacks the target and roars, increasing your Haste by 5% for 8 sec.
(6,2) Hunter T20 2p (Passive) : Cobra Shot, Multi-shot, and Kill Command increase the damage bonus of Bestial Wrath by [2/3%] for its remaining duration. Max 10stacks. Two Rank Talent.
(6,3) Scent of Blood: (Passive) : Activating Bestial Wrath grants 2 charges of Barbed Shot.
(6,4) Barbed Wrath: (Passive) : Barbed Shot reduces the cooldown of Bestial Wrath by [6/12] sec. If Aspect of the Wild is learned also reduce its cooldown by [4/8] sec. Two Rank Talent.
(6,5) One with the Pack: (Passive) : Wild Call has a [10/20] % increased chance to reset the cooldown of Barbed Shot. Two Rank Talent.
(7,1) Stomp: When you cast Barbed Shot, your pet stomps the ground, dealing Physical damage to all nearby enemies.
(7,2) Choice Node:
-
Killer Cobra: (Passive) : While Bestial Wrath is active, Cobra Shot resets the cooldown on Kill Command.
-
Rylakstalker’s Piercing Fangs: (Passive) : While Bestial Wrath is active, your pet’s critical damage dealt is increased by 35%.
(7,3) Qa’pla, Eredun War Order: (Passive) : Barbed Shot deals [10/20]% increased damage, and applying Barbed Shot has a [50/100]% chance to reset the cooldown of Kill Command. Two Rank Talent.
(8,1) Pack Resilience (Passive) : Dire beast lasts an additional [1/2] sec and deals [20/40]% increase damage. Two Rank Talent.
(8,2) Dire Command:(Passive) : Kill Command has a [15/30]% chance to also summon a Dire Beast to attack your target. Two Rank Talent.
(8,3) Aspect of the Wild: (Ability) : Grants you and your pet 5 Focus per sec and 10% increased critical strike chance for 20 sec.
(8,4) Blood Frenzy (Passive) : Barbed Shot has a [15/30]% to apply [1/2] stack of frenzy
(8,5) Call of the Wild: (Ability) : You sound the call of the wild, summoning 2 of your active pets for 20 sec. During this time, a random pet from your stable will appear every 4 sec to assault your target for 6 sec.
(9,1) Wild Spirits (Ability) :100 yd range / Instant 1 min cooldown
Evoke the energy of Wild Spirits from all your pets and Dire Beasts causing them to deal up to (Ranged attack power * 1.15 * 0.5 * 1) Nature damage to their target every 1 sec. for 8 sec.
Also causes the next pet frenzy caused by Barbed Shot to deal (42% of Attack power) additional Nature damage on each of the 5 attacks
(9,2) Dire Pack (Passive) : Every 5 Dire beasts summoned resets the cooldown of Kill Command, and reduces the focus cost, and cooldown of Kill Command by 50% for 8 sec.
(9,3) Wild Empowerment (Passive) : Increase the duration of Aspect of the Wild by 5 sec, and grant 1 charge of Barbed Shot every 5 sec.
(9,4) Feeding Frenzy (Passive) : Barbed Shot duration, and Frenzy’s duration is increased by [1/2] sec. Two Rank Talent.
While Barbed Shot bleeding is active, each damaging ability you or your pet use against the target will strike the target for (38.5% of Attack power) Nature damage.
(9,5) Choice Node:
-
Wild Instincts: (Passive) : While Call of the Wild is active, Barbed Shot has a 25% chance to gain a charge any time Focus is spent.
-
Bloody Frenzy: (Passive) : While Call of the Wild is active, Barbed Shot affects all of your summoned pets.
(10,1) In for the Kill: (Passive) : Barbed Shot bleeding has a [3/6]% chance to reset the cooldown of Kill Shot, and causes your next Kill Shot to be usable on any target, regardless of the target’s health. Two Rank Talent.
(10,2) Wailing Arrow: (Ability) : Fire an enchanted arrow, dealing Shadow damage to your target and additional Shadow damage to all enemies within 8 yds of your target. Targets struck by a Wailing Arrow are silenced for 5 sec.
Two abilities we used to have.
Aspect of the Dragonhawk (18% dodge)
Aspect of the Iron Hawk (10% damage reduction)
Just remove the attack power bonus and put this as a choice node in the 8% dodge node we currently have. Percentages can be tweaked if needed.
PS. thank you.
6 Likes
I would like to see a “dps aspect” added as well. I like the idea of activating aspects for different effects. But would be nice to have different kinds for example DR, dodge chance and one with bonus AP for dps. Can change depending on setup and what you are fighting. Good both for pvp or pve.
1 Like
A couple more abilities Id like to see again are Readiness and Expose Weakness from the old Dragon Stalker set.
1 Like
Spell reflect on Deterrence would be a fun node, but on Turtle now.
Could be a choice node between Spell Reflect and Attack while Turtle is active (Torg power.) Could be Polished Shell or Chelonian Crest.
1 Like