Maybe, but I would prefer it slightly different.
So far, they do not, no. We’ll see.
WFB is the most iconic and recognisable part of the toolkit.
Pet involvement isn’t unique because that’s BM’s forte. No, “coordination over command” is not a real thing.
Physical melee isn’t unique because it’s already done by Warriors, Rogues, and Druids.
WFB is what’s truly unique.
Doubling down on pets and physical melee at the expense of special munitions would be an enormous mistake. Just like how melee SV itself was an enormous mistake.
Lacerate is such a generic physical melee ability that another spec in the game already has it (Feral Druid).
Survival already has a DoT: Serpent Sting. It’s far more unique and iconic. Hunters have had it since the start. It’s a venomous arrow so it represents that special munitions fantasy that’s now so sorely underrepresented in the game. SV does not need another dot but this time only melee, physical, and generic.
Giving procs of another ability is an implementation detail. They could just make Serpent Sting do that.
Yes and that’s a major design error. It should be using a ranged weapon. Moving away from what little ranged weapon representation it has would be a mistake. In fact in Legion it had no ranged weapon representation at all yet they made the current design specifically because Legion SV did not work out.
Aspects were always mainly a BM thing as a matter of fact. SV already has Aspect of the Eagle. Giving it more beast-themed aspects would in fact infringe on BM’s identity. I understand that this is your end goal but people do actually want BM to be unique and special in some way rather than handing everything over to SV just because a handful of people liked the idea of melee BM.
They’re both uninteresting generic physical melee attacks anyway. In the past I’ve listed them among Warrior abilities to people who don’t know much about WoW or at least not much about those classes and they can’t tell in a list like Rend, Mortal Strike, Butchery, Whirlwind, Carve, Execute, Blade Storm which ones are the Hunter abilities and which ones are the Warrior abilities. We should not be doubling down on SV being a mock Arms Warrior.
No, SV was not about precision. That’s an MM thing. SV was all about utilitarianism. A grenade fits very well with ranged SV.
Yet you want to also give it exotic pets, more aspects, and in general usurp BM’s historic identity of pet companionship.
No. This is a terrible redesign of the class. You’re again trying to steal away BM’s identity and revise it into something else. Legion was the only expansion in which BM was forced to be a “zookeeper” and it generally wasn’t received well. In every other expansion BM has one pet, and in the last two you can spec into having two pets. It’s not and should not be the core state of the spec. A lot of people over the years picked BM because of the close companionship with one pet and it’s not fair at all to them to redesign their spec from under them because they have to back up Survival… another instance where they redesigned the spec from under its players.
Also let’s appreciate for a moment the irony of saying SV does not train or *command its pets despite Kill Command being a core part of the spec.
Again, we do not need ranged BM and melee BM in the same class. Trying to drive a wedge with pet companionship v.s. command is a farce and also spectacularly hypocritical given the original goals of making SV melee. If SV were ranged like it was and like it should be it wouldn’t have to steal BM’s unique aspects.
You’re just describing “melee BM” and “ranged BM” again. It also makes little sense for a spec that’s meant to be about “guerilla tactics” to be arbitrarily sticking to a melee weapon and not using a ranged weapon.
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Druid gets 2. DKs get 1. I think that it is far more likely for Hunters to get a class tree closer to DKs as they have 3 specs and only two roles vs Druids who have 4 specs and all 3 (4 if you distinguish melee DPS from range DPS) roles.
I’m really enjoying all the discussion, guys! Lots of good points, and lots of honest, serious debate.
Tomorrow or Tuesday, I’ll be drafting two separate threads. What I’m gonna do is share my opinion in the first post, then in the second post, I will be referring to you guys’ various points — whether I agree or not.
I’m gonna make a thread about pets and pet design, for both the BM spec and the Hunter class as a whole. There’s already lots of great comments about pets in this thread.
My second thread is gonna be about class design and spec design. I already have my own thoughts on this topic, and I will write that in the OP of that thread.
But! I’d love to hear your perspective on this topic. I’ll just throw out a few questions to (hopefully) spark off a discussion on this.
- How do you define the class fantasy of Hunters?
- How do you define the spec fantasy of each spec?
- How do you define the difference between class and spec fantasy?
I’ll start on my drafts tomorrow, and hopefully I’ll have those two threads up on Community Council in a few days. 
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Thanks, Watermist! It might be worth asking on Hunter discords too - I know the Icy Veins guy runs one but I’m not sure if there are any other large discords just for hunters. 
If you want to, please go ahead. I really only hang out on the WoW forums, partly due to the fact that I usually don’t have the time or energy to spend on multiple forums, heh.
EDIT: Bepples said there’s this big Hunter channel on discord. Trueshot Lounge or something like that.
Yeah again, that being the direction of the spec identity is a problem. You don’t seem to understand how throwing a grenade is not a unique skill that is representative of being a “hunter”. When anyone can do the thing (throw a grenade) its not special to do the thing.
Thank you for your opinion it brings so much to the conversation and is a step in the right direction. /s.
If we really want to go into the history it was originally a SV talent ability way back when. So truly druid stole it from Hunters. Go haunt another class forum with that one.
Yeah they could do that but that wasn’t the point. The point was to translate Lacerate into todays SV mechanics. Instead of mongoose charge, free raptor strike.
That is 100 percent your opinion. Thank you for such a wonderful contribution.
Yes because Aspect of the Eagle is equivalent to Aspect of the Wild. One gives focus the other shoots green eagle spirits.
Projecting. You know nothing of my goals for BM other than I said to make it multi pet baseline so no.
Smite, Penance, Judgement, Castigation, Divine Star. See we can do the same thing with other specs and classes. Yes there is crossover. There always will be. Its not always bad.
The rest of your comments are just rants at this point and serve absolutely no benefit to the discussions at hand. Which seems to be common place throughout these forums. Which basically just boils down to:
MSV is dumb because I want SV to be a Ranged Engineer class not an actual Hunter.
Honestly you, Bepples, are the worst thing that has ever happened to the Hunter community.
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You don’t seem to understand how stabbing things with a spear is not a unique skill that is representative of being a “hunter”. When anyone can do the thing (use a spear) it’s not special to do the thing.
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yes please.
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Oh look the bepples fanboy. How cute.
Spear hunters are literally a fixture of all hunter gatherer societies. So theres some history for you. Not every class can wield a spear or a 2hander. Every class can become an engineer and throw grenades. Try again.
Short version:
Ranged damage
Pets
Traps
Tracking
Long version:
Hunters are the warriors of the wilderness. The wild can be dangerous, but for Hunters it is their home. It is also the source of one of the Hunter’s greatest assets, their beast companion. All Hunters can befriend a beast of the wild and work with it in hunting or in combat.
Hunters also rely on a bow, gun, or crossbow to take down their pray or foe. It is far safer for the hunter and allows them to take down their pray before it can damage the Hunter. The beast companion can also hold the target’s attention, allowing the hunter time for more shots.
In addition to the beast and ranged weapon, Hunters carry a variety of traps. These traps can either add to their damage, or slow enemies down. They can even use an ice trap to freeze their enemies in place allowing them to escape or wait until other foes are dead to attend to the frozen enemy.
Finally, Hunters are skilled at tracking. They have learned to read the signs of the many different types of creatures in the world. They even have the ability to sense the locations of tracked creatures that are near them. This includes even those who can make themselves invisible.
Beast Mastery Hunters are the master of beasts. While they will still use a ranged weapon to harm their target and traps to control it, their preferred method of attack is through their beast companion. There understanding of the connection to the beast allows them a greater ability of beast handling in combat. This knowledge also allows them to tame beasts that are stronger and more difficult to handle than what your average hunter can deal with. They are even able to call on other wild beasts for aid and can, if they wish, have additional beast companions out with them on the hunt.
Marksmanship Hunters specialize in ranged combat. They prefer to attack from so far away that the enemy has no chance to retaliate (if they even knew the hunter was there to begin with). Their beast companion and traps are meant to bring down and control sturdier foes that a single shot can’t bring down. There pride is in their accuracy, especially at a distance. Expert Marksman Hunters will know the weak points of their pray so they can quickly bring it down.
Survival Hunters use whatever tools are needed to bring their target down. They will carry more specialized traps for stronger pray. They will use poisons to cripple their target. They will even use explosives or magic enhanced projectiles as needed for whatever they are hunting. Anything facing a Survival Hunter is in for a world of pain!
Class fantasy is what is intrinsic to all of the class. It defines the baseline of what makes the class separate from every other class.
Spec fantasy are the elements that are added to the class that causes the spec to focus on one niche. It has all the parts of the class, but chooses an element to enhance.
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I’m not against hunters sharing skills cause there will be some overlap but a BM’s beast summon skills and pet damage should be top-notch and MM should be the superior dealing damage at range with unparallel shooting speed and accuracy rate and survival should feel like a big game hunter with a rocket launcher and a huge blade ready to pierce a hide too thick for a bullet or arrow and traps ready to slow and cripple a huge Godzilla like a beast for wrecking an ecosystem.
I kinda hope they add ether spellcasting for ranged with melee survival…meaning a better version of aspect of the eagle or to make it so Survival also has ranged skills that fill role of raptor strike and they can use a bow or gun again.
Hey, guys. Can we cool down a little bit? I would hate to see this thread devolve into bickering. This really isn’t about who’s right and who’s wrong.
In my case, what I’m after is just to get an idea of the various perspectives of the posters in the Hunter forum.
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Do you mind clarifying this, please? I don’t think I understand what you mean by “spellcasting.”
I’m nobody’s fanboy, just a 17 year Hunter main sick and tired of revisionist history.
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Isn’t Aspect of the eagle spellcasting thru a melee weapon? So i mean that being an alternate design option for ranged survival. A different path but I’m also up for having explosive shots back as an alternative to raptor strike with wildfire bombs traps and poisons and whatever the alternative to cleave would be…multishot?
I’m not as knowledgeable as many of these guys in reference to spec balancing and comparing skills and talents. I’m gonna give a different and probably much simpler point of view.
I started maybe a year before MoP and completely clueless about video games. I started a warrior and Druid and Hunter ., and fell in love with my Hunter.
I was awful but I loved being out in the world with my pet. Never felt alone. As soon as I learned about the various special and rare pets I starting hunting them. Waiting for hours. Getting so excited to find one that I’d get myself killed by something else.
When we learn to switch pet specs I was elated to mix and match my different pets and switch up mogs to match them.
In WoD I actually started to learn about both my and my pet’s Utility. It was fun. I started to try things that seemed daunting. The more I learned what I might be able to do, the more I learned about what pets couldn’t do.
There’s always the funny story of pulling a whole dungeon by jumping down. It isn’t funny anymore when Chonk can jump off this ledge out of combat but not in combat. It isn’t funny when it says “no path” while he stands next to me. It isn’t funny when we feign death and then I can’t wake him up without dismissing and resummoning him. It was easier and more fun when I was just a dumb newbie running around and skinning stuff all by myself.
Then my pet specs were locked and I need to use certain ones for most content I do and the rest sit in my stables. Why look for more?
And Exotic Beasts became less effective and it was disheartening because they had been so special.
And then content became more challenging with Sire Denathrius and Sylvannas and Chonk gets lost and goes the wrong way and can’t get to adds far away and we feel useless.
I just want to have fun and be effective with the class that Blizzard offered to me when I started.
And I’m not discounting all the hard work many of these posters put into their class evaluations. Their opinions are just as valid. However, my primary reason to play is to relax and have fun.
Thanks for standing up for hunters.
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Thank you Watermist. Hopefully the Devs will see our points and make strides upon them.
Hunters are masters of the wilderness and beasts. They ride the line between the civilized world and the wild. On one hand they are in tune with nature to a degree that almost resembles that of Druid or Shamans. On the other hand they are capable fighters that have mastered combat on the rugged frontiers. Hunters can emulate the various beasts that roam lands, and after some training, can even tame those same beasts to aid them in their hunts. Hunters utilize a number of ingenious traps to assist in the various challenges of the untamed world.
Beast Master: Through careful training, the Beast Master hunter focuses on directing their tamed beasts to successfully hunt their prey. Utilizing a number of commands, shots, and multiple hand selected pets, the Beast Master Hunter and their chosen pets can quarry and bring down any number of difficult targets.
Marksman: The master of long range combat, the Marksman Hunter typically will forgo working along side most tamed beasts for most challenges. Preferring to go ‘Lone Wolf’ as it were. Through precision accuracy and masterful aim, the Marksman Hunter can neutralize a target using a number of different shots before it has time to register the threat.
Survival: With the help of a deep bond with a tamed beast, the Survival hunter uses a range of tactics and implemented devices in order to survive and to hunt. Coordinating with their selected hunting companion next to them, the Survival hunter works as a deadly duo utilizing savage melee strikes and blows as well as toxins and even explosives to take down their prey in guerilla warfare style.
The difference for me between class and spec fantasy is that all Hunters ‘hunt’.
How Hunters accomplish their ‘hunt’ is what separates them into three different unique specializations.
One way to view this is by the pet to spec utilization between the 3 spec fantasies.
Beast Masters is about 75% pet 25% hunter
Marksman is basically 0% pet 100% hunter
Survival is about 25% pet 75% hunter
Thank you once again Watermist.
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If I have any suggestion to make it would be to integrate or just plain replace bm’s mastery with surv’s mastery spirit bond. It affecting focus spending abilities for the hunter and the pet. If that doesn’t scream beast mastery hunter I don’t know what does. Surv’s mastery should’ve always been about elemental damage ie their stings, traps, and bombs.
BM pets just do too little damage compared to the hunter. Presently due to cov abilities the hunter is doing 50% of the damage profile. This is with tier before tier the pet was only 33% of our damage profile. BM’s mastery only affecting the pet means mastery is worth half(with tier) or 33% of our damage vs most other dps spec’s mastery. Essentially making it a dead stat.
For season 4 class tuning I’ll just say give just the pets a % boost. What percentage, I’ll leave that to the mathematicians. By just buffing the pet you would attempt to correct the damage profile a bit (favor the pet once again). And since we rely solely on the pet for aoe outside of CDs that would help out in that area as well.
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Welp, there went surv for s4.
We can go back to arguing how msv is and will always be garbo until it goes back ranged.
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