Community Council discussion on Hunter design

I was in the same position. I had gotten everything i wanted by 14 points and was forced to take 6 more b4 i hit 20.

Do you, or ?

2 Likes

Well, yeah. I’m always the first person to tell others that I don’t have much time to dedicate to WoW as I would’ve liked. Hence, no hardcore PvP or M+ or raids. :woman_shrugging:t3:

But that doesn’t mean I can’t compare and contrast class design, nor analyze themes. It also doesn’t mean I can’t look at the feedback that others, much-more-dedicated players post and share them on the alpha forum.

I am a teacher — it’s literally what I do; I gather information, condense it, and then break it down for other people. :slightly_smiling_face:

24 Likes

Sorry, but someone who plays at a normal level isn’t in a position to understand the nuances of game design. Note, I have no issue with you being on the council, providing feedback on aspects of the game you like, don’t like, etc… But when it comes to understanding the talent trees, the interdependencies of design, and how talents will play out you shouldn’t have a voice in that discussion.

No, quite frankly they do not.

The majority of folks who play Hunter do so as mains, and PvP or PvE at the highest level? I think you need to gain a better understanding of statistics.

2 Likes

They actually do, since majority of hunter community isn’t going above +5s in M+ and staying in lfr / normal.

Now, at those stages, the tuning of the talents, is less relvant, however the fun factor of the spec is the same.

You didn’t need to be a mythic raider to see if say MB survival build was fun or not (it was for a lot of people), you did need to be a mythic raider to see why MB survival build wasn’t optimal/viable in high end raiding.

6 Likes

You would be sort of correct if Watermist was posting their own opinions.

However, Watermist has been making a point of asking questions to the community and making summary posts expressing those concerns and then backing it up with facts. They ARE NOT posting their own opinions like some other CC members have been.

And pleas consider, the skilled high end players are often in guilds and communities that facilitate that level of play and don’t always experience what the “average” player does.

If you have specific points to make, then make them and they can be included. This isn’t Watermist speaking to what they feel is best for the community but rather as a representative expressing our varied concerns in a way that the Devs made read and consider because it’s logical and unemotional.

11 Likes

Huh what nuances? At high end play it is about which spec you chose more than anything else. My wild spirits play as BM during S3 wasn’t going to magically put me in competition with Survival or Destruction on M+ AoE.

Most high end players are meta players, they will swap to whatever class/spec is best for the environment they enjoy. It is human nature, play the spec that has the biggest advantage. Not sure they offer any great insights other than which specs are meta and which are not.

3 Likes

Yes. Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street, I don’t remember what it was he said or why, but he had some less than favorable things to say to a player when he was the Game Director and since then Devs have had very limited interaction with players compared to what used to be the case.

Get a load of this guy. Id like to see your degrees and credentials in psychology and neuroscience to determine what we can and cannot understand.

No one needs to be a mythic raider to understand class design nor do they need to be a vetted game developer to make a better designed class…
Give your high horse a rest, your over inflated ego is going to break its back.

10 Likes

how do you export the tree to wow forums? so you can see it n stuff

The worst forum takes are always from people who hide their profiles. Coincidence?

2 Likes

You can’t, afaik. You have to take a prt screen of the tree in your manager and upload the image to imgur, as an example. The code export to pastebin is just so others can copy it to import into their own TTM.

stupid. lol

heres my generic one.

<script src="https://pastebin.com/embed_js/mW07WBU0?theme=dark"></script>

Note that your upload on pastebin expires in 30 days. If you want it to be a permanent upload, you need to first create an account, and then make a new upload where you copy the entire data text from your old one, into the new upload.

Assuming you want it to be permanent that is…

id rather you look at my tree first and see if im any good at it for me to create an acct lol.

About your proposed class tree design.

Some key things:

  • There are too many active buttons for damaging abilities. 9 from the class tree alone is what I got to. Almost twice as many as the current class tree on alpha.
  • There are so many talent nodes that provide effects/abilities which focus on throughput. You won’t have enough talent points to pick them all, due to gate restrictions, yet alone having enough left to pick utility/defensives. I think I counted 29 nodes that increases throughput in some way.
    • Especially the middle section, ideally it shouldn’t include any talents for throughput.
    • Why? Because of our combat role as hunters. If possible, we would almost always want to spend points on throughput. At least for PvE.

About specific talents, some thoughts are:

  • I would prefer if you switched the position of Tar Trap and Improved Traps.
  • Agile Movement, as a 1-point, I would say that it should be 10%, up from 5%.
  • I’m confused about the wording of Hunter’s Agility, per your suggested design. Is it intended to be a DR, in addition to being a DPS increase?
  • Your redesign of Nesingwary, into a revolving apparatus is unique, for sure. at least as far as traps go. Though, I’m not a fan of the randomness to it. And your suggestion for Caltrops is waaay too powerful(the damage component).
  • I see you brought Wild Spirits back, with a few additional talents to further build on it. This is ofc subjective, but I for one would prefer to not have it in our class tree, nor any spec tree for that matter. I’m not a fan of the ability. That’s just me though…
  • Regarding Sniper Training, I’m not sure what that haste is good for if you don’t have any shots that have a cast time. The other effects are probably a bit low, numbers-wise. It’s a class tree ofc, but only MM will ever really benefit from that part of the talent. Or do you intend for it, the haste, to also affect periodic damage effects from ST shots?
  • A Sniper’s Anguish is a bit confusing, since your tree is intended for Survival. Afaik, Survival doesn’t have access to Wailing Arrow? Also, what is that bit about “wind arrows”? And the target count, Wailing Arrow doesn’t have a set hard cap of how many targets you can hit.

I wrote up some feedback regarding BM talent trees here :

While it doesn’t fully rework the entire tree (which is just unrealistic tbh) I do think that it would fix a lot of pain points in it.

Imagine being so wrong that you’d have to use fancy words to accurately describe it
:face_with_monocle: :coffee::ok_hand:“Your opinion, sir, is acutely erroneous”

This is a hill I am willing to die on all day, every day. I’ve already gushed about this on the other post.

The only thing I can imagine Hunters bring to a raid atm “utility wise” is the fact they can be completely ranged and mobile (mostly mobile for MM) so they can do heavy movement mechanics and still maintain max DPS. That’s even a reach though, otherwise I’m just a turret with a mini turret following me around that can get stuck on a tile if you look at it wrong.

It amazes me that WoW doesn’t have a Spellbow spec in it. Traps are very Hunter/Ranger fantasy but I personally draw the line at explosives (I.E. WFB). I used to think that Explosive Shot and Trap were magical when I was young and dumb. Now that I’m old and dumb, I’ve seen what was in front of me for years. Even now I don’t think I like it being an explosive and I feel like Incendiary/Fire Arrows would maintain the hunter/ranger fantasy more.

To me, the Hunter/Ranger fantasy should have a reverence for nature similar to a druid. While a druid wouldn’t want to harm nature or the animals that reside in it, a Hunter would understand that even in nature there is the hunter and the hunted. They immerse themselves into nature and play the role of the hunter as nature intended. Rexxar treasures his relationship with wildlife, finding more in common with them than society. Even Nesingwery has been known to protect helpless animals from poachers and knock the sh*t out of amature hunters getting it twisted. They’re both apart of Trueshot Lodge, they’re the most iconic hunters in the game, and they reside on both sides of the hunter spectrum. It’s hard for me to find where exploding things fits into the “reverence for nature” spectrum. Again, just my opinion.

Spellbow, if it were focused on the arcane magics, obviously would be a departure from this but would open up a different line of design: multi-classing. Imagine if you could be a Hunter/Mage Spellbow, A Hunter/Warrior Survival, stuff like that. This topic is obviously outside the scope of this post but an interesting thought experiment to help get the creative ideas flowing. Something that the hunter class/talents severely needs atm.

10 Likes

This is what i miss the most from the old hunter design, i loved being a ranged class and i loved having free movment. But when legion came one of the speccs turned melee and the other had their big dmg ability turn into a stationary spell basicly reducing what i loved about hunters into just one specc. It really irks me that blizzard refuses to give the mobility back to MM in the talent tree, we already lack nodes so why not add in something that feels fun.

1 Like