Community Council discussion on Hunter design

and yet they manage to have more substance to them compared to “i do not like melee hunters”

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Ah yes because I’ve never ever detailed any reasons why melee Hunter is a bad idea?

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Your post on BM was really good, thats obviously your preferred spec. Your take on Survival however… No. Survival is a dumpster right now. It does not feel good at this point. It needs desperate CPR to keep it alive. Blizz needs to wake up on some of these specs.

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How dare you complain about throughput, we are a pure dps class! lol

  1. I do not see where you are getting the extra active nodes. There are only 3 nodes that are active spells that are not in the original blizz tree, venom bomb, venom blast, and Wild Spirits. However, you have to recognize that i took away ES, Barrage, Chakrums, and traps are all passive but give active use through the Revolving Apparatus.
  2. I went with the clear direction of making sure there was plenty of choice in the tree. I feel like blizz’s tree is too constraining. Plus their tree heavily pushes you into utility when really one should have the choice between utility, healing, and/or throughput. I found as i repeatedly went through the tree that i could pick plenty of throughput but also i also had plenty of talents for movement speed, healings, and utility. If you look at the rogues and warrior’s trees, the majority of their class trees are throughput. It is only our tree that suffers from the lack of throughput.
  3. I can switch tar/impro. traps.
  4. Yea, i stuck with alot of what blizz had for numbers but instead of having 2 points = 5%, i was going for 1 point = 5%.
  5. Hunter’s agility is the dodge talent we have in blizz’s tree. They originally had agility, but changed it. I went with agility because it makes more sense then i multiplied its uses. While you will get some dps increase out of it, the focus is more with the defensive aspects it provides. You will notice that throughout the tree i really shored up our defensive issues without taking space in the tree. There is alot of leech healing, damage reductions, even spell damage reductions provided in the tree. All of these are passively added instead of forcing players to take “+5% increased leech to kill shot,” and wasting points. I made removal of dead talents like that a priority, thats why it seems like there are more talents then there really are, i just removed the useless bloat.
  6. I couldnt decide whether to make Nes’s random or just revolving. Probably just revolving. Its a great way to add trap play into the rotational play without forcing players to target ground locations. I feel that i would play the trap build on survival easily without ever getting pissed off for missing a trap. Plus i retained the CC trap’s uses by keeping them ground targetted for obvious reasons. Caltrop’s damage can always be adjusted of course, however, i do see the traps as being in the “middle” between low damage dealers like dots and hard hitters like MS. You can see this because they only have 10 sec recharge timers.
  7. I really didnt want to bring Wild Spirits back, however, if blizz was going to choose any of them, that would be the one. Flayed shot and resonating arrow have already been dismantled so there was no other choice. I did add some modifications, but i feel like i can soooo much more with Wild Spirits then i ever could with chakrums. I prevented myself from creating too many nodes for wild spirits, however, i could make more.

Key note: I know this technically a “surv class tree” but really i am using it for all three of the specs. I just chose one to start with to get going.

  1. Yea, it was getting late and i wanted to finish it. I think the basics are there but they need modified for sure. Haste on ST shots like AS and BS would go a long way ST wise. Plus if you add all the Right side talents together you get tons of secondary states, cdr, increased dots and hots. All together it would be quite strong. After more brainstorming I will change some things on those probably.
  2. Again, just using the ‘surv’ tree as a template. Wind arrows would stack the debuff on all the targets they hit, so it gives the hunter a choice of which target they want to consume the debuffs on. I think i might increase the rate of wind arrows, tho.

Let me do some changes to it today and ill link you a new one tonight. I think if we can get it shared in alpha and on the CC forums with mist, it would provide blizz with a detailed and visual example of new ideas that they should be using with the trees.

I’ve played it for a while, and i do think it’s an okayish spec.
I like to try to isolate spec/class feedback, and there are some things i’d like to see in SV, but part of it involves figuring out their end-point design goal.

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It’s mostly that it could cause problems in terms of the overal power level/scaling. And that the class tree ideally should focus mostly on class-wide utility/defensives. Again, for PvE, if you have a choice between throughput or utility/defensives, you’re going to want to pick the throughput as it’s so valuable in most cases. It might result in you not being able to keep yourself or your raid alive, but if you then choose the utility/defensives, it’s going to feel bad because you’re missing out on throughput.

Serpent Sting, Kill Command, Kill Shot, Sentinel(with Embrace), Venom Bomb, Venom Blast, Stampede, Nesingwary’s, Wild Spirits.

You can take them all, along with nearly all other nodes that increases throughput as well. But you won’t be able to get almost any utility or defensives at all.

The alpha tree has 5, 6 if you decide to go for Steel Trap. Though, that requires you to spend 2 points in NTA. Depending on which spec you’ve chosen, you might want to do this.

I think the best thing to do, in that case, would be to put additional throughput choices in the capstone section, forcing you to pick what you find to be most useful in a particular scenario. As you can’t spend more than your final 11 points down there anyway.

However, if you put those extra throughput choices in the second bracket, as an example, you will more or less be forced to take those over utility/defensives. Or in cases where such utility/defensives are mandatory for an encounter, it still won’t feel good to ignore the throughput.

In PvE, you won’t have a choice most of the time, if it includes options for throughput. It makes it much more risky in progression when you really need that utility/defense, but at the same time, you need as much damage as you can get as well. Again, it could amount to a “no win-situation”.

They changed it because they never intended there to be a throughput node in the second bracket. It was just a PH effect while they decided what else to put there.

If you’ve picked multiple trap choices for the apparatus, how would you make sure to have the one you eant for a particular situation loaded into the apparatus? Just waste charges on those, in order to get the one you want next?

I assume that, if you only pick Caltrops, only that one would be available as an option? And then, in that scenario, there would be no RNG/rotation of traps.

Perhaps. Although, why include it then? Just to have something to replace Death Chakram?

Okay, but what are ‘wind arrows’? Are you talking about the Windrunner talents in the MM tree?

If so, I’d have to disagree about that talent. Neither Wailing Arrow, nor the Windrunner talents are class-wide options. Having talents in a spec tree that enhance something in the class tree is okay, because the class tree is designed to be class-wide. But having talents in the class tree that enhance other talents in a spec tree means that such talents are more or less only for that spec.

Could you design it like this? Sure. Although, why not just put that particular talent in the corresponding spec tree then?

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Yes, exactly this. x1000.

I agree entirely, dont let me post much on BM and MM i havent played those since Cata. We really need a staunch advocate for SV changes that will just tunnel the devs for answers. Thinking about making a thread for Survival Questions for Devs and hope some CM or Alpha tester will ask in the alpha hunter forums…

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  1. There are certainly different perspectives to it. For example, it feels bad to have throughput talents you can’t take because you need utility. However, I think it feels worse when you have taken all the throughput talents in the tree and your still forced to spend 6 points on talents you dont want or wont use to meet the 20 mark. Thats what alpha is right now, definitely a lack of throughput.
  2. Yea, i get what your saying for the talents, but its the same way on alpha. For example, on alpha your still going to take SS, KC(if surv/BM), KS, Sent(only niche), ES, Chakrums/stampede, PLUS you add steel trap and exp trap. On mine you take SS, KC (SURV/BM), KS, sent (niche), VB, Ve Blast (MAYBE, its a choice node), stampede, WS. Plus, all the traps are on one button so theres no gloat there. I get what you are saying, though. I bet i could move a few things around to streamline the throughput choices, but I do not think we should go utility heavy because thats just depressing.
  3. I think the issue with the hunter’s tree is that there is no excitement, no joy in the capstone area. In fact, there is VERY LITTLE joy in the tree all together. This is widely agreed upon by the hunter playerbase. You want throughput capstones to be exciting, and if not, at least powerful. Blizz has failed on that part extensively. Revolving traps is exciting. the new stampede and ill prob rework WS as well to be more exciting. Ill make the right side more powerful. I think streamlining the throughput is fine, i dont think removing it is a good thing.
  4. Yea, i know, but theyhavent done anything with agi yet.
  5. I need to reorder the trap side. Another thing is the traps are supposedly similar to bombs but with different reactions, effects, etc. its a way to make positive use of traps. so your not meant to hold onto any of the traps, they are rotational. i think damage dealing traps are an untapped revenue for rotations, its just they never get used bc of the targeting and how situational they are. i try to make them unique, and bring different things but still be useable and still be on blizz’s list.
  6. Well chakrums is, imo, a dead talent. blizz has already done everything they can do with it. you really can only do so much with a richoceting spell. With wild spriits, yes its ground targeted (for now on my treee) but there are so much you can thematically do with it. there is alot of growth with the spell. plus it is much more exciting and strong then chakrums.
  7. Yea, i guess i will have to rework SA then. I though both BM and MM received them. I never truely liked it but it felt like it fit.

Still questioning Master Marksman Node.

Will it work for BM or Surv special Attacks IE Kill Command This is Hunter Cast but delivered as a Melee attack {???} Assuming that’s the signature special Ability the Dev’s are referring to I see no definitive as to which they consider it being.
Now if it was Cobra shot or wildfire Bomb activated This would be much better much better. I did not point to Barbed Shot as it already has a bleed And Raptor Strike is a melee ability Yes ?.

No word on AC adjustment either If it remains as it is now. it makes the left side of the BM spec a point sink and outright burns 35% of a 2 point Node for Pack Resilience buff as well as downgrading all the other companion Nodes.

Take Wailing Arrow out of the Spec Tree for Both BM and MM Replace it with Whatever Thematic Idea Be it Wild Spirits, Lynx Rush, Blink Strikes, Black Arrow Etc. Place Wailing Arrow in the Steel Trap Node. Turns that into a choice node either ST or MT.
Include a path from Beast Master so we are not forced into Nessingwarys.

The benefit from Binding Shackles to BM is Negligible for other than PVP Better for LW MM Kiting stray adds. So just another gate talent we don’t want or need.
Also it doesn’t reduce damage to pet as well according to tool tip which is where the threat from adds should reside.

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I have same problem with understanding Master Marksman, heck it even has Marksmanship when you hover over it. Can BM/SV use?

Would like to see AC slide out so it’s optional, similar to how Scare Beast is in class tree.

Agree it would be nice if Imp Kill command had a link to steel trap.

Binding Shackles specifically says “to you”, which is useless for BM as we have a pet with threat. To hunters on the whole because PvE group content comes with a tank we are misdirecting too. If on other hand it worked for “target that has threat” that would make it useful for PvE. Great opportunity for Blizzard to add unique utility to hunter class.

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Latest blue post says Master Marskman should now work with melee attacks (I assume when the talent tree is updated).

For sure the first thing I think of when I hear “Marksman” is a guy with a polearm.

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Well we do have a mini xbow!

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Just rename it to Master Hunter kek. Problem solved. Where do I collect my check?

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It’s over there, on the desk. Yeah, right there. Next to all the sexual misconduct reports.

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Well shoot. Might stay late and help those get processed swiftly!

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An updated one.

You will find it greatly improved.

I would still question the choice to mix throughput with utility/defensives, especially past the first gate(in the middle section).

I’m still not convinced that Wild Spirits and the additional talents you’ve added fit the theme of the hunter class(especially those bits that refer to themes of haunting, and anguish), based on what Wild Spirits is on live. Again, this is ofc more subjective, just my thoughts.

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Well I was trying to fix the required choice between throughput and our defensive issues. I think that by combining the two, it not only fixes that issue without the required point spending and it also builds into the throughput part of the tree. They also allow for points to be spent on utility instead of strictly throughput or healing which are the two categories above utility. I was trying to promote leech, dmg reduction, and active healing through them. Alot of time in progression raiding and even in m+, when your heavily focused on continuous dps, its not burst healing that is often the issue, rather then slowly healing up to conserve mana. This continued healing through dps will allow hunters to slowly heal up and give them that little extra to stay alive.
I also made venom bomb a passive. While i do not necessarily like it, it does streamline active talents a bit. I really do not see much if anymore talents that can be streamlined to minimize active talents. Perhaps venom blast, but i do not think that would be reasonable.

I thought about those a lot, but the spell lends itself towards those themes, The spirits are obviously not right in their world if they are to be used as a spell. This is a very gray area, and perhaps clarification on the well-being of spell spirits might clear things up. In regards to ancestors, i am not following the shaman’s ideas of ancestors, ie the world or the main essences of the world. Shamanism is grossly concentrated on nature and the elements. I focus on the bloodlines (as seen on one of the talents), the ‘family’ as you were of hunters. This theme very much sits perfectly into the hunter’s toolkit.
I think ill take a look into the defensive passives again, and perhaps reworking of those talents. I very much think this tree is 100000x better then the alpha and would greatly approve things if shared and given to blizz.