Actually going on 7 now. But I will say one of our problems in the Hunter forums is that we cannot have a discussion about how to improve the spec without it derailing into RSV needs to come back, or should never left, or was the same as MM.
Hunters cannot seem to get out of our own way, and when things are released subpar, then we complain about why…and the dev’s did not listen to us. Well that is true. Because we as Hunters have little to say when it comes to the CURRENT iteration of the game.
Perhaps its not a problem the community had to solve, rather one that blizz must fix.
We never asked for rsv to be removed. It was taken from us and it split the community apart. The community is never going to heal until rsv returns.
Most of us who want rsv back are tiring of seeing the garbo msv take rsv’s spot. Its true. Msv has been a complete failure and a huge dumpster fire since its introduction. Its had numerous full scale reworks and nothing has worked for it.
Get used to us being here. The rsv movement has only grown over the years and it will continue to be active in all discussions until it returns.
By your reasoning we’d still live in the stone ages and say F to progress. You might not tire of whining about RSV but the rest of us might (or rather already have?) tire of having to hear you. Like Shadowaxe said, it’s been close to 7 years! Time to move on, how cringe can you be? It’s a game and they changed something in it. Accept it or stop playing.
Also, there has been One “full scale rework”. It was in BFA, and it’s even stretching it really far to call that a “full scale rework” to be honest.
Edit: Not to say I am happy with how they decided to implement a melee hunter or how the SV hunter looks in DF so far.
you’ll have to get tired of screaming into the void eventually. it’s been 6 years. every day we get farther and farther from rsv. every day more and more people start playing who have no point of reference for what ranged survival was like. every day we get farther, the more it becomes a distant, faded memory. you will never get it back.
This is a) a cliche and b) a terrible application of it. The whole point is that we won’t see meaningful progress with SV remaining melee. It’s the wrong approach that has only ended up being bad for the spec and the class as a whole. Doubling down on it is not the answer.
Yes, Blizzard is stubborn and unlikely to ever change their minds. That’s NOT a reason for not giving honest and correct feedback about it being the wrong approach. You might see it as constructive to feed into the developer’s delusions but in fact it’s the opposite. There were plenty of things in the game’s history that seemed like unshakeable constants until they weren’t, and every time we had people like you begging people to stop trying to change Blizzard’s minds.
You may see unconditionally accepting Blizzard’s design visions as a virtue but it really isn’t.
It was a full scale rework. Very little of Legion’s toolkit, talents, and gameplay survived. In contrast ranged SV kept mostly the same core model from WotLK to WoD.
In fact melee Survival has been consistently trending towards being ranged-centric to the point where the melee part of it is as sidelined as it can be before just making it ranged.
It was ranged from the start of the game until Legion which was a period of 12 years so there literally wasn’t a memory at all for melee Survival but they did it anyway.
Plus WotLK classic is coming out and even Cataclysm classic is on the table so people will be able to play and experience ranged Survival concurrently with retail. And perhaps they’ll wonder why a much older iteration of the spec seemed to have more sensible design direction than one from over a decade into the future.
All it takes is a change in leadership. Just Hazzikostas being replaced could increase the chances for ranged Survival. And we’re long overdue for him being replaced to be quite honest because it’s no secret that his leadership has been an extremely negative influence for WoW and brought some of its greatest failures and downfalls.
Yes, this whole drama about RSV sure is a cliché, you are right. And the whole point was that we are getting fed up with the whining. There is no credible feedback on here because it’s all always derailed into RSV/MSV drama.
And no the BFA rework of SV wasn’t a “full scale rework”. Because BFA SV was very close to how Legion worked with a lot of plate-spinning removed and some other changes. That is not a “full scale rework”.
But yes, I agree it was a mistake by blizzard to full-on 360 and take the SV spec towards ranged more and more the last 2 expansions. I am completely behind you Bepples, the spec should return to melee as was intended with the Legion rework. It is nice of you to finally admit that SV should not be ranged and they should not try to force it towards it but rather embrace the melee role more.
Also a note. What you are saying is because someone thinks something is good, decent or fun while you disagree makes that person delusional and wrong. So basically you and only you are right and anyone and anything that is not in accord to your opinion is wrong? Sounds reasonable enough. The RSV crowd have spoken, listen ye peasants and change your minds, because you are wrong!
P.S. Yes I realize that repeatedly answering Bepples and Co will just put fuel on the fire on this whole RSV drama but it’s funny how it’s almost always them arguing for RSV and begone MSV while the other side just wants the discussion to be over… D.S.
Honestly if the community as a whole would just ignore them they would go away. Like we just dont engage them and their squabbling. Ever. All they ever do is detract from the conversation as a whole. Its not worth engaging with.
What’s with this tactic of immaturely twisting what other people are saying? This is a common theme in your posts.
Making SV ranged is the only credible feedback for the spec. Everything else is a waste of time.
Personally I’m fed up with SV being a directionless mess. Melee caused it, ranged will fix it.
It really wasn’t close to how Legion SV worked. Just about every aspect of the toolkit and gameplay was changed.
It was the second most extensive rework to a Hunter spec behind the Legion SV rework itself.
The only things that remained constant were Harpoon and Raptor Strike. Aside from that the entire toolkit and talents were changed.
There’s that twisting of words again. This is a bad habit.
It was a mistake to make it melee. Doubling down on making it melee would be an enormous mistake. So far the success of SV as a spec has directly corresponded with how ranged it is. It was at its most successful when it had no melee at all i.e. MoP. It was at its least successful when it was most separated from the ranged weapon i.e. Legion. It was a little better off when it was melee with a lot of ranged capability (BFA, SL) and a lot better off when it was ranged with a minimum range restriction (Classic-Cataclysm, better off each expansion as the melee was more and more sidelined).
The only exceptions to this rule are Wod 6.2 and SL 9.2, and those are entirely up to massive tuning anomalies; significant undertuning in 6.2, and significant overtuning in 9.2.
What I’m saying is that the developers are deluded and wrong and that’s truth. SV has demonstrably fared worse since the melee rework. It’s been far more controversial and far less played. It’s design is totally lacking in direction. It’s a spec with high maintenance and poor results, in contrast to its ranged days when it was low maintenance with good results.
People can have fun with the spec, sure. From a gameplay perspective it’s fine and at least once upon a time had a sensible playstyle with lots of build choices (before 9.2). But that’s not enough. It also had good gameplay when it was ranged on top of having a solid identity and direction and not being inherently repulsive to most Hunters.
Cool plan but it won’t work and it’s not as if we’re the only people talking about how melee SV has turned out badly.
Imagine 5 years from now a brand new player falls in love with the hunter class. Interested in it’s history looks at how it became what it was and see that it once was Ranged. Goes to make a post here asking blizzard to make survival Ranged for his own reasons.
My point is, even without the rsv half of the community this will always come about.
Imo, we should both care what was and help with the now for betterment of the future but it isn’t inherently evil to ask for something back that was, without a public discussion or poll, completely rework a spec that was in the game for over a decade. Idk about you guys but having both versions in the game would be wild and badass
yes, i can picture it clearly in my mind. i can picture ion, slouched in his big comfy chair in his office. his feet are on the desk. he’s just woken from a nap, and if you looked closely on his gaunt and ghoulish face, you’d see the remnants of a milk mustache. it must have been then. the moment he decided: “let’s make survival into melee.”
You do realize this happens for every spec in this game and for every single video game that exists right? People will always remember old mechanics/abilities/whatever that were removed fondly. The entitlement here is off the charts.
I am not twisting any words though. I wonder who the immature one is.
I am not the grown man who spends his free time throwing tantrums, ultimatums and considers me and my feedback to be “the only credible feedback”. All for some playstyle of a class in a video game. Something that got removed 6 years ago!
You must Surely realize how childish this is? Are you surprised when people considers you and your posse entitled?
Anyway i am sure you will come up with some awesome reply trying to turn it all around and keep on whining about RSV. Good luck, seems like its been working well for the past 6 years.
I feel like Blizz making MSV being so contentious is partly stemmed from the feeling of what it represents.
When Blizz took RSV away in Legion, it was another instance of Blizzard “knowing what’s best” attitude they’ve been taking in the last few expansions. “It was originally meant to be a ranged spec so we changed it”. I can’t find blue posts or PR statements on why they changed it, so I can’t give exact quotes but I remember it being another instance of Blizzard telling you how you will feel.
Telling people how they will feel sucks. No one wants to be told their feelings or how you should be feeling. It’s the equivalent of you falling down and scraping your leg, you saying this hurts, and someone walking up to you and saying “Well, it doesn’t hurt that much.”
It’s a kid having a stuffed bear that they love and never go anywhere without. Then an adult comes along and takes their stuffed animal away and giving them some electronic new-age toy and being confused when you don’t like it. “We designed this toy to be fun and you should have more fun with this toy than that stuffed bear.”
People want* RSV back because it was something that might have been a little rough around the edges (what classes/specs weren’t at some point) but they liked it and it was taken away from them unceremoniously, then we were told it was better this way. MSV being in a bad place design wise is the crap frosting on the crap cake this entire situation has turn into.
If RSV and MSV were separate specs, I’m sure the general consensus would be along the lines of “oh, that’s cool. I’ll probably try that out at some point”. It would probably be a lot more popular if this was the case but instead it’s just a symbol of resentment towards developers “knowing what’s best” attitude.
Darthstinky (what a name lol ) is right with his comments about every class going through something similar to this, having massive reworks over the lifetime of the class. MoP Demolock is MASSIVLY different from today’s model, it’s just something that happens. I don’t agree with the dismissive, nihilistic execution of his posts. Just because you don’t care doesn’t mean others shouldn’t care too. That “deal with it” mentality is toxic and is a complacent mindset that rots away any sort of critical thought in its hosts, transforming them into mindless dribbling “no question, just consume” troglodytes.
The RSV discussion is here to stay, whether you like it or not. You should Just deal with it.
*beating the trolls, I’m not dictating how everyone feels. It’s a statement based on my observations about how a lot of people feel about the topic and should be taken exclusively as an educated guess and not hard fact. Feel free to feel another way or have additional feelings.
While we can’t say for sure, where their minds are at right now, they have made some comments on the matter, in the past.
I spoke to Chris Kaleiki, a former class dev who worked on the hunter class more or less since TBC(in preparation for WotLK), in a short conversation about the history of this class. Note that this was not any sort of “formal” interview or anything, nor does anything he said necessarily reflect on what the current dev team thinks of the matter. He said that, internally, they thought of the pre-Legion Survival design and fantasy “to not be quite as developed, and was lacking a bit (of depth)”.
Apparently, they had noticed “the few, but vocal, number of players who wanted a melee spec, and thought it would be a good way to break up the three specs available to us”. This was based on their change in philosophy of class/spec design, going into Legion.
He himself(Chris) did not agree with the decision to rework Survival to melee, due to how “it disenfranchised all of the players who were fond of the original gameplay”, from before Legion.
Having said that, here’s some of what they’ve come out and said in official interviews:
Q: You guys also oversee all the other classes. Are there any particular changes that you’re most excited about?
…
And then Survival Hunter…
Travis: It was another one that was missing its niche. It’s kind of like Marksman except more traps? Or different arrows? So it was kind of missing that “what is the core fantasy?”
Having it move into the melee space and actually return to its roots that was the vanilla Survival experience. You got your Raptor Strike and all that and having those come back and play a role, moving into melee, giving mobility like the Harpoon to draw you in – it’s like it finally gave them a unique identity. If this is the beast companion guy that you’ve always wanted to play then you’re going to have that role.
Generally those are the ones that probably got the most drastic changes but every single class – I think one of the things that’s fun to see is when you go into a five-man dungeon now and you can actually pretty readily, visually go: “Oh look the Rogue is doing his roll of the dice right now” or “Oh look the Paladin just threw his hammer.”
You get more flavor both visually and also as a player. That feeling of “What is that experience that I wanted?” and it delivers a little bit more for every class now.
Ion have also said something similar in a few interviews, when asked about Survival.
Reading between the lines, in short, they applied a certain logic to the design of the hunter class, a logic that wasn’t applied to all other classes/specs at the time. Basically, they thought that there couldn’t be two specs where both of them had a focus on the use of ranged weaponry. More importantly, rather than doing what they did with all other specs, by developing them to become even more defined in their existing themes/fantasies, they scrapped RSV/old SV without even bothering to try to make it distinguish itself further, from the other hunter specs.
Is the concept in [this link] “perfect”, from a design perspective? Most likely not. But it sure as heck wouldn’t play anything like current MM. The main point is that they could’ve done the same to SV, as they did to all other specs, going into Legion. But they didn’t…
This is why we’re still here, petitioning for the return of RSV. Contrary to the opinion of some, based on what they/the devs said, it wasn’t justified to remove the spec. Something that’s especially obvious, given what they’ve done with SV since. Note how they’ve stamped SV as the “beast companion guy”, which is how they had previously branded BM, since the start
Basically what it breaks down too is one or two devs, including ion, wanted a melee hunter spec and against the advice of 99% of the devs, they went with it bc no one outranks ion.
That is essentially how it went down.
So instead of returning the spec to its LK model and working it from there, they claimed it was “melee” before and switched it although nothing in rsv past has ever produced a melee playstyle. Ever.
See, this is every rsv supporter’s point. There was no reason to turn it melee. No one but a very select and vocal few wanted it to happen. It was torn away from a very large and loyal playerbase and turned into the crapshow it has continuously been since its introduction. Short of a few, 2 if i remember correctly, times when its been so overtuned people actually played it, its always been garbo. Msv has the lowest spec representation out of all the specs and has held that position for years. At the beginning of this xpac, its representation was like .001% and the nearest spec to it was feral druid at like .9%. Its had a full rework done, its now going through spec tree and that process has been a NIGHTMARE. Smallest tree out of all the specs so far, massive number of 2-3 point talents, no logical direction of builds, 2 button rotations, horrible capstones, no spec identity, meme playstyle like the ranger ReXxAr build, the enter tree consists of KC talents forcing it to be the melee version of BM, and a headache execute playstyle that i dont even think is a build anymore. While blizz has taken steps to make things bearable, its still leaps and bounds behind the other trees, even feral.
This is one strong reason why people want rsv back. We are tired of the garbage blizz continues to produce for msv. No before the trolls come in and say “oh they are doing it off of player feedback,” its the same thing as why it changed in the first place. A vocal few having too much influence. On alpha right now, blizz specifically picks the 1%, the white knighters, and the streamers for testing. These people make up a total of 5% of the hunter playerbase. These stupid… are the ones making the changes we see now.
The rsv war will never end until it returns as a 4th spec.
Are you genuinely trying to argue with me that you think there are no other examples from other games of things getting removed that players loved?
In LoL:
Max W Mid Khazix
Tank Ekko Top
Support Pantheon
DFG
Leblanc Silence
Zileans OG passive
Old Graves
And the infinite list of champs that got reworked
In CS:GO
Tuscan
Cobblestone
Aug meta
Krieg meta
Old AWP Movespeed (rip)
In WoW:
OG Second Wind Warrior
RSV
Perm Camo
Old Sp Iterations
Pretty much every iteration of all specs from MoP
Warlock Siphon Life
Should I go on? There’s only one on this list that people consistently continue to spam post about and derail threads with, take a guess!
) is right with his comments about every class going through something similar to this, having massive reworks over the lifetime of the class. MoP Demolock is MASSIVLY different from today’s model, it’s just something that happens. I don’t agree with the dismissive, nihilistic execution of his posts. Just because you don’t care doesn’t mean others shouldn’t care too. That “deal with it” mentality is toxic and is a complacent mindset that rots away any sort of critical thought in its hosts, transforming them into mindless dribbling “no question, just consume” troglodytes.