We’ve noticed some really strange behavior on Twin Emps where occasionally, one of the bosses will randomly aggro to a Hunter and I wanted to see if we’re the only ones. Looking through logs and replays and even going back to watch stream clips, there appears to be no reason why the boss would behave that way. And then this week we saw something VERY weird happen which is why I’m writing this thread. One of our MTs died about mid way through the fight and they had a soulstone. After the bosses teleported, the MT used their SS to get back up…and then about 3 seconds later Vek’linash peeled off the tank to chase down the rezzed MT, resulting in a wipe. There was absolutely no explanation for why that happened, but after doing a LOT of digging through logs, I wanted to share this theory in case others are noticing this behavior as well and are looking for an explanation.
Each time we saw the boss peel off for a Hunter, they were “dead” when the boss teleported via FD. In one instance, a Hunter FD’d .037 seconds before teleport and then came back up after the teleport had finished. We then saw the boss peel off me and run over and kill the Hunter. So putting the Hunter thing and the SS thing together, my hypothesis is that dead players (whether actually dead or FD’d) are not having their aggro wiped when the bosses teleport. So if your Hunter is FD’d during teleport, when they cancel FD they will regain their aggro from before teleport and peel off the MT. And if someone dies and takes a Brez, they will come back up with how much aggro they had at death.
Is anyone else noticing this weird behavior, and if so, does this theory line up with your experience too?
We’ve had an actual dead player get aggro immediately after a rez. The whole “dying doesn’t wipe your threat” thing I believe is a retail “feature” that’s made its way into Classic, probably unintentionally.
Death doesn’t always reset threat tables, the threat table only reliable reset when the boss is dead or the boss resets.
It’s for this reason sometimes rarely vanish will fail to clear threat and LiP and feint and stop attack are needed. I don’t know if this is a bug, or just a resist thing, or maybe both? I have experienced it with vanish on other bosses, but it’s very rare.
I’ve looked at your logs, which I assume this is the ID:
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Your tank Actuallyaguy dies at 9m24s seconds to caster emp’s Arcane Burst (???). Seems to me like he was AFK because there’s no reason for him to be within range of that while the melee emp is on the other side of the room and the teleport happened 20 seconds ago. When the teleport happens at 9m40s (15 seconds after your tank’s death) there is no OT there to pick up the melee emp.
Melee emp is loose and kills Treez (healer), and then Philbeart (bear tank I assume). Melee emp is still loose in the raid and everyone is running around like headless chickens. Warador (warlock tank) loses aggro at 10m05s and caster emp begins wrecking havoc as well. Erroot (the hunter you’re talking about) eventually gets aggro on the melee emp, but it’s quickly picked up by Gigantor.
Teleport happens and the caster emp just Arcane Bursts you all to death.
The issue was not the battle rez or your hunter getting aggro (he only got aggro when everything had already gone terribly wrong). It was your tank dying at 9m24s and no one being there to pick up the melee emp.
I’ve selected the time frame when the mystery aggro happens. Feel free to analyze, maybe I’m missing something. But there appears to be absolutely no reason why the boss aggro’d to the Hunter aside from my theory since he FDd right before teleport and was “dead” during teleport.
At 4m01s melee emp teleports and starts attacking Chisum 2 seconds after teleporting (as intended), but Chisum does not do anything to keep aggro (he just spams Bloodrage which generates no threat). No one is attacking the boss at this point and the only one generating any threat after the teleport is Petbabe with his TS aura. Petbabe probably sees that he’s top on threat after the teleport and FDs, but Chisum doesn’t do anything to get aggro, no one else is generating any threat at all during these few seconds, and as Petbabe comes out of his FD his TS auro generates 7 threat and he instantly gets aggro. No one does anything to try and get aggro until Petbabe is dead.
Worth mentioning that Petbabe should have ran towards your tank when he saw the melee emp coming at him; instead, he ran towards the middle of the room.
The 4:01 incident could potentially be explained by what you’re describing, but doesn’t the closest person to the boss start out with 1500 threat or so? So TS aura generating 7 threat shouldn’t have been enough to pull unless I’m mistaken.
But even if the 4:01 incident is explained by the tank over there not hitting the boss in time, that still doesn’t explain the ~8:58 incident because I hit the melee boss with 2 Mauls before he tore off me to the Hunter.
Of course I’ll bring it up that the pickup needs to be faster, but the person closest to the boss gets like 1-2k starting aggro after teleport unless I’m mistaken. So 7 threat from TS aura shouldn’t have been anywhere near enough to pull. But even if that ends up explaining what happened at 4:01, it doesn’t explain what happened at ~8:58 because I Mauled the boss twice before he aggroed to the Hunter who was still on the other side of the room.
And for the record, I appreciate the extra insight. But unless I’m wrong about the closest person starting with >0 threat, that explanation doesn’t work. But regardless of what the explanation ends up being, it’s safe to say Hunters shouldn’t FD on that fight, and the tank needs to hit the boss sooner after teleport.
I’m just looking at the replay and comparing it with the graphs.
I haven’t looked at the rest of your encounter so can’t comment on that. I’ll be able to check out what happened at 8m58s later.
That being said, I don’t think the threat whoever is the closest starts out with is a set amount; I’ll check during raid tonight exactly what happens.
Nevertheless, ± 1-1.5k threat is not enough to carry the transition. Batching alone can scuff it up so it’s important for your tank to not rely on the automatically generated threat, cuz anyone attacking the boss prematurely can peel it off of him at that moment. This annoyance is a non-issue if your tank does anything other than just stand there spamming Bloodrage for 5 seconds.
I’ve had this happen with brez as well. You have to be mindful of the tele-swaps and just make sure the warlock/warrior currently tanking has a good threat lead.
We haven’t seen it first hand, but it’s believed that pets can mess up the proximity aggro that is supposed to occur upon teleport. If the pet is closest to Vek’lor after teleport, then runs across the room to Vek’nilash, Vek’lor may go running after the pet.
There was no Bloodrage spamming. If you look at the log you’ll see that Bloodrage and Shield Block were cast before teleport occurred. Then we see Vek’nilash hitting me at 4:01, then the next thing we see is Bloodthirst at 4:08.
Also the 1.5-2k threat from teleport is absolutely enough to hold aggro for more than 2 seconds, but not enough to overcome the >8k threat generated by the hunter in the previous teleport cycle. What you can’t see is that after the melee at 4:01 Vek’nilash is running across the room toward the hunter so those 6-7 seconds between the melee hit and Bloodthirst involved chasing.
I did miss a Bloodthirst cast on Vek’nilash at 4:01, b/c I apparently had Vek’lor targeted from before the teleport - but that mistake wouldn’t have changed the situation. There is no way I could have generated 8k threat in the 2 second stun window, which is what it would have taken to pull off the hunter.
