These trees looked good at first but they’ve slowly made these bizarre changes that drastically limit the amount of actual choice we have. First we had these problems with a whole Momentum column where you have Initiative, Tactical Retreat, UBC sandwiched between them, and Momentum itself, a set of talents that disproportionately boosts ANY build, but now also this CE column in the class tree. Of course you’d want talents that boost DPS instead of optional utility, so a Mastery increase, Erratic Felheart if it’s going to improve aforementioned compulsory Momentum (which in turn, is greater incentive to take Momentum cos hell, you’re reducing FR CD from the class tree to get to CE) and of course you’d want to boost your Eyebeam casts because what else in the class tree is going to offer equivalent DPS increase (after you’ve specced into The Hunt ofc) than CE? The Misery Sigil? Unlikely! So that’s four talents we’re locked into in the class tree - right at the end no less! (and not including the ones for The Hunt!) - and five talents we’re locked into on the spec tree.
But wait! It gets worse!
If you’re taking CE in the class tree, then you’re going to want to spec into Blind Fury to extend the duration of that CE-empowered Eyebeam (personally a talent I do not care for because I don’t want to be stun-locked casting Eyebeam any longer than I have to.) And then if you have such a front-loaded Eyebeam why not try to hit as many talents as possible that will buff it? So that’s Cycle of Hatred, Looks can Kill, Isolated Prey if you’re building for S/T and ofc Demonic in the class tree. These are all a large enough investment that we’re strangled for spare points by the end of our build. I like playing with Demonic Appetite but I can forget about it in DF I suppose. Netherwalk and Fel Erruption as good as removed from the game! Wait…aren’t those utilities? Why aren’t they in the Class Tree and the DPS traits in the spec tree? How has this happened?
I’m sure this will be a strong build and I’m happy for havoc to no longer be a borrowed power gutter spec, but there was a really hopeful moment at the start of the beta where it looked like you had so much choice to build for how you wanted to play. Over time however a coherent cookie-cutter spec has begun to emerge. Surely others see this too and aren’t happy with it?
Yeah, doesn’t seem like Fel Eruption and Netherwalk will ever be possible to take without losing significant damage. I don’t understand why devs won’t just move it to the left tree. And give vengeance something other than NW.
The damage brought by CA is not on par with Unnatural Malice. The Hunt on a 1.5min cd to deal 30% more damage on the dot is less than the damage by CA, and CA being procced by EB which has a 40sec cd, less with CoH. But, you’re taking both at 70 anyway…
This feels too much like why we transitioned into the current trees in the first place. I like being able to pick Demonic Appetite and Demon Blades and Felblade, but some of the choices don’t feel meaningful and some are just not on the same level. I started ranting more, but I’m only diverging from OP.
Also, I’m only testing on a bugged PTR where Demonic isn’t working properly, so what would I know. Took them too long to fix Inner Demons.
I agree. IF they insist on having the movement-for-damage playstyle as an option then it should be its own thing. Let those of us who like demonic and want to play in and out of demon form do our own thing without having to take maintenance buffs and other nonsense.
I really enjoyed the cycle of hatred builds in BFA since Eye Beam was such a short cast but still impactful. That’s long gone with Furious gaze being gutted, 6 second demonic, 40 second eye beam, etc.
It almost feels as though Havoc is a combination of two specs; Momentum, and Demonic. The end result being that neither is done particularly well and the fanbase is left fighting.
Imagine if hunter had marksman and survival squished into a single spec. You’d get some very wonky builds and some very frustrated players. We’re in a similar position.
Trade Relentless Onslaught for Ragefire if you prefer. You will likely lose fury gain (you’ll just as likely gain overall dps though) as the 2nd cast proc does have a chance to refund. Increased by Critical Chaos. You’ll be stacking crit anyway.
You could also drop Shattered Destiny for Ragefire and keep Onslaught. Again it’s just whatever you prefer. I’d recommend not playing Shattered if you’re not playing Demonic though. Would be better off with Ragefire
I’ve messed around with some builds similar to that, and honestly they don’t feel too bad. My biggest issues are that they simply don’t do enough damage, and we cannot get netherwalk or fel eruption. We used to have to choose between defensives or utility, now we have to sacrifice throughput for utility. That feels bad.
However, the main concern is damage, and how everything competes with momentum (or cannot compete, as seems to be the case).
I’ve seen this concern from every class since they started numbers tuning.
I think havoc is in an especially bad spot in terms of how our damage is being balanced because of all the modifiers we have. Our damage is obviously being balanced around having as many as we can possibly stack at once. If someone doesnt like playing momentum, or demonic, or essence break, then they’ll be playing a scuffed version of havoc.
I am pretty certain the developers addressed this and stated that this was going to be the case, that there would be one or maybe multiple ideas of a good build and that players could choose not to build that way resulting in a less ideal outcome.
There will always be a talent choice path that will produce a higher output in damage.
You have to get yourself out of this mindset. The game is not SO poorly tuned that you HAVE to play what’s putting out the most numbers to clear content. When you break out of that meta mindset and play what you enjoy you’ll notice you complain a lot less ( not that you are, I am speaking generally) about changes like this to our class and enjoy what the game has to offer more. If Momentum was something Blizzard wanted to be proud of, but hardly any Havoc plays that talent, it would get changed sooner than if everyone complained about it. You can see this with across all classes with many talents, spells, specs, etc over the years.
TLDR: Don’t play Momentum if you don’t like it. You’ll be fine.
This is true, but long as your Havoc build isn’t purposely trolling by taking no talents with synergy you will be accepted into 90% of the games content. You likely won’t break 2400cr in PvP or 3k PVE, or Mythic raid if you’re not playing what’s BiS but that’s a given in any MMORPG.
It’s still mandatory. People will take demonic over momentum if it’s a 1-2% difference, because that 1-2% isn’t worth the tedium and frustration. However if it’s clearly better especially situationally then momentum will be mandatory.
There really are only three options:
1.) Rework momentum
2.) Delete momentum entirely
3.) Break momentum off into its own spec
The alternative is to leave it in this ambiguous, polarizing area is bad for the class. Nobody wants to learn how to play a spec only to have the way it plays radically change due to a slight alteration in one of the talents. Demonic and Momentum fundamentally play different than each other. I’d argue that their difference is on par with or greater than Assassination vs. Subtlety, for example.
Blizz’s best option is to break momentum off into its own spec. Lots of time investment, but it would allow movement-for-damage players to have their own spec that caters to their desires, and demonic players could have the same.
Again… what’re you taking about? Momentum and Demonic are in entirely different trees. 90% of builds take Demonic regardless of taking Momentum. It’s like you’ve never played DH even on PTR/Beta
It’s so funny how this Momentum drama is shaping up. It was only a handful of dedicated cranks a few months ago but now my modest, anti-CA thread has devolved into yet another Momentum debate.
I just hate CA and don’t want to play it! Why not swap it into the havoc tree with Fel Erruption?
WHAT? ULDIR?! BFA?! Yo stop commenting haha we’re talking about DRAGONFLIGHT where Demonic and Momentum are not on the same bracket of choice. What you just said couldn’t be more irrelevant or even comparable
You seem like a smart guy, why are you struggling with this? Uldir is precisely relevant, because momentum has not be reworked. Uldir momentum was just fel rushing. Same as today. Demonic has also not been reworked, only tuned. The only salient things that have changed are throughput ancillary rotational components, such as adding VR or altering the prevalence of blade dance.
The massive preference for demonic back then is also relevant due to the massive numbers involved. BFA launched with huge fanfare that died down in subsequent expansions. If you look at some of the data about tier completion Uldir and CN were the two biggest raids in terms of raw numbers in the last 6 years, with subsequent falloffs. Uldir had 28,000 or so guilds start the tier and CN had 32,000 or so, with about 1/3 finishing it.
This means that when given the choice between demonic and momentum players almost always choose demonic, even when it’s a slight performance downgrade. It takes a more substantial performance downgrade to keep them playing momentum.
If you take a look at Shadowlands it shows that a 5% performance downgrade is substantial enough to force people into momentum.
Momentum is not popular. It’s a playstyle that a few very angry people on these forums wish to force the rest of the playerbase to adopt. The rest of us don’t mind if you have momentum, we just don’t want it to be more than 1-2% higher throughput. Is that really so unreasonable?
What’s your point? You want the game to not change at all for Havoc DHs and only have tuning to their damage? That’s the idea of a fun spec for you?
Again, what’s your point? How is this relevant? I get that you literally stopped Mythic raiding and only got AOTCs in SL but no one asked you to reminisce about BFA.
Nope, players will always choose whatever has more throughput in a specific encounter.
Yes, that’s because Momentum plays slightly as a Risk/Reward build. It’s the same idea as Ravenous Frenzy vs Convoke; if the reward doesn’t outweigh the risk, people won’t play it.
Link the data. Where do you get the 5% performance downgrade from? Which patch are you referring to? Which boss are you referring to? Where are you pulling these numbers from?
Momentum is not popular among players who have not seriously tried it or tried it at all/among players who don’t do content where its increase in performance would ever affect them (like you).
No one would ever take Momentum if it was 1-2% higher because the risks won’t justify the rewards.
What you guys don’t seem to understand is that this is the entire point of talent trees. You can choose to play AMN over Essence Break (or both), if you dislike EssB’s playstyle and don’t mind a marginal lower dps output. You can play FotI over Demonic even if it means that Demonic does more dps on some fights.
Otherwise, either every single talent/every talent path taken is tuned to have the exact same DPS (impossible, btw), or you remove any talents with playstyle changes/synergies from the game; and you end up with every talent as a “Increase dmg of [insert ability] by X%” across the board.
Literally none of you do high M+/raid mythic, why do you care if you do 3-5% less damage than the next DH? How is that “scuffed”? You can’t have your cake and eat it too every single time. Momentum haters are some of the most entitled players I’ve ever come across.