Cognizant Game Design

Please be thoughtful about how you are designing SoD and the new abilities you are releasing. To be clear, new abilities are a good thing, but they need to be implemented with care.

The OG WoW Developers understood that utility and abilities should have both Pros and Cons. To give just two examples, Stealth is incredibly powerful, but it can be broken easily, slows your movement, and has other abilities (like dots and flare) to counteract it. Another example is how Hunters deal damage. While dealing physical from ranged is incredibly powerful, they were at least limited with a dead zone and had to stutter step so they weren’t 100% mobile.

I can already see some poor design choices creeping into SoD, and it is going to screw up how the game functions. Right now, I’m playing balance Druid, and so I’ll offer to new abilities from its kit.

First, Wild Growth. This ability really does fit in nicely to the Rdruid’s toolbox, but how it was implemented is going to hurt the game. It’s an instant cast full party heal that does just an absolutely bonkers amount of healing. Since it is a massive, aoe heal, it should 100% require a cast time and on top of that, that cast time should be slow. Like 4 seconds.

Second, Starsurge. This is an instant ability with a 41 yard range and for all purposes costs zero mana. It also hits like a truck. This is actually the perfect example of an ability with only Pros, and no Cons. It either needs to cost a lot of mana, have a shorter range, have a cast time, or deal more damage based on the number of dots the target has (so 1, it’s worse for Rdruids because they don’t have Sunfire, and 2, it requires some setup).

There needs to be Setup and there needs to be Cognizant Thought in your game. When you design abilities like Wild Growth and Starsurge, you then have to design encounters to become more and more ridiculous to meet the absurd power of players. In my opinion, this just leads to one huge cluster in both PvP and PvE where both become just one, long Socker Boppers slugfest. I (and I’m sure many others) like Vanilla because it feels like Chess. You make moves and anticipate. You understand resourse management is very important, as is knowledge of boss mechanics so you can be prepared You don’t just mash buttons without thought.

To be clear, I am loving SoD. The original game 100% needed some sprucing up. I just hope there’s some forethought going into these choices so we don’t end up back at retail. The game should feel slow. Abilities shouldn’t always just have Pros. Long cast times, setup, resource management (the Cons) are important to keep the game steady.

<3

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I agree. What I hate about Starsurge is that it’s just better than every other spell, in every way. It doesn’t feel like a cohesive part of our toolkit, just an OP bandaid stuck on top.

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Why do casters constantly need to be the ones with downsides to abilities, meanwhile stuff like Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, or vanilla abilities like Mortal Strike or Hamstring have functionally no downsides and are just strong abilities that you use that are strong and good?

:face_with_raised_eyebrow: :laughing:

That’s what these runes in the first phase are. They’re to bootstrap actual gameplay into Vanilla WoW as well as core class fixes into the base classes, to “fix” the flawed Vanilla game design and make it less bad and also make it more fun.

Chess is boring, videogames are not.

Mortal strike costs rage and the warrior has to be in melee range. So it’s not like it doesn’t have downsides.

Considering where that’s the Warrior wants to be, I don’t see that as a downside at all.

Massive mistake making them runes instead of expanding the passive tree by adding the runes and perhaps giving us extra talent points to discover around the world instead.

But ofc they approached it with the minimum effort/code required which was just slapping runes to item slots.

The saddest part of this approach is that it blocks certain rune combinations which would / could have created really cool interactions and better build synergy in various cases.

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Void Plague, Haunt… plenty of instant cast spells that are on another power level over their vanilla counterparts

Yeah, but that’s exactly the problem. Once caster’s get too reliant on instants, they stop being “casters.” When that happens, melee need more mobility now until they get so much they aren’t really even melee.

Idk. I just see it pretty clearly how one thing leads to another. We will see I guess.

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Well thought out, solid post.

I feel like they got Paladin mostly right with how our runes are implemented and aren’t ridiculously over-the-top. I would say we require burst to be effective in PvP with our kit but with HoJ, it’s oppressive in world PvP situations. Not so much in WSG with 5% crit reduction and 25% dmg reduction.

Some runes are just plopped in there and do slappy, slappy numbers. Penance and Prayer of Mending come to mind with out ridiculously mana efficient they are.

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These two cost resources. The issue with Starsurge is it currently costs almost nothing. That’s why one of the possible downsides OP listed was increasing resource cost

Not really. Rage is not really a resource in the sense that it is for mana. Mana is finite, Rage is not. Comparing mana and rage is dumb.

Mortal Strike doesn’t cost you health, or debuff your armor, or force you to stand still for a notable amount of time channeling the ability on someone’s face. You just get rage, and then you push the button and you get to do big damage.

Starsurge already has a cooldown associated with it and a mana cost that incurs FSR. If it costs more mana, it would need to do noticeably more damage. Mana costing spells are supposed to be superior to non-mana costing abilities because mana is the only finite resource (other than I suppose health), so if you want to make it cost more mana, it needs to just be better than anything a melee can do on a comparable cooldown.

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Resources are resources. Rage may be the best resource because it isn’t normalized in classic, but it’s still a resource. You have a finite amount and using it on one skill trades off with using it on another.

Yeah, you have to manage rage. You need to estimate how much you’re going to get in between CDs and hold usage on other casts to make sure you have enough when MS comes off CD. These are the same kinds of decisions casters have to make about mana management, or that rogues have to make about energy usage

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The downside to abilities like divine storm, mortal strike and hamstring is you have to be in melee range. If mortal strike could be used from 41 feet away and cost no rage then yeah it would be op

This kind of thing is inevitable with the constraints on the development. They are committed to talent trees and base abilities being the same. Presumably this has something to do with back-end limitations or development cost? If you can only get 3 abilities to make balance druids as good as warriors…man those abilities have to be INSANELY strong.

How strong? Well an instant cast, free, 42yrd range spell that hits for 250ish damage isnt strong enough.

Runes have to become crazy OP abilities to balance out classic. It would at least help if the bonkers classes got weaker runes than the weaker classes.

Please use smaller words I had to Google the first word of the thread title…

This statement alone shows you know nothing about the original development. The original developers simply copied other games, often times extremely poorly which is why warriors ended up as strong as they were and many classes were completely worthless.

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They already said that SoD is basically a PTR for the. To try stuff out in. If people want “better” balance, they can play Wrath or Retail.

No one is talking about balance? What we are talking about is perspective. Priests are God-tier healers right now, that doesn’t change the fact that Wild Growth and Starsurge (and many other abilities) run counter to the game design of Vanilla. Having a massive, instant, partywide heal fundamentally changes the game. All I am asking is that Blizzard be cautious doing this. Simple but nuanced is fun. Not every version of the game needs to be APM based.

Idk man. Read more carefully if you’re going to comment.

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The “game design of Vanilla” is bad. That’s like… the point of runes.

One of the biggest reasons for SoD to exist is “we want to have the world and art and quests of Vanilla, but with actual modernized gameplay that’s fun”.

I always see weirdo Classic Andies say “We want modern graphics and classic gameplay” and its like, no, we want classic graphics and modernized gameplay. At least Wrath era gameplay.

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