This is a continuing series of discussions on each major change/addition during Vanilla that hasn’t been discussed to death yet (pulled from my previous post here --> https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759182153 ). If you'd like to read other topics Axebreaker was kind enough to list and link all 34 talks in this thread here ( https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760717982 ).
Today we move onto 1.10 with Tier 0.5! This is part of itemization, but I feel that tier 0.5 is significant enough to merit it’s own topic. With 1.10 Blizzard introduced tier 0.5 which was a chain of quests which upgraded your regular dungeon set and turned a few pieces epic. This achieved two goals. One, it allowed players to obtain a tier set with some epic pieces without the need to raid, and two, it helped ease players into being raid ready.
This change however came at a time when raiding was well established and had already gone through three main tiers (MC, BWL and AQ), so introducing improved pre-raid gear had no impact on current raid content. All this did was give casual, non raid players a new tier to chase.
As with many other topics we could have tier 0.5 it at the start, not at all or introduced during Classic’s lifespan for those who are looking for a progressive style Classic experience. I’ve always been a fan of progressive raid content and I feel like Tier 0.5 is the equivalent non-raid content if that makes any sense. I also think having tier 0.5 at launch would take some of the challenge out of the first MC runs. I know I know, many people think MC will already be a joke, but if it’s a joke, (which it may not be depending on how blizzard handles it), why make it any more of a joke than it has to be?. I think Tier 0.5 should be released when it becomes irrelevant to current raid content which I believe is between BWL and ZG.
I’m very curious what you all think!
I agree with you 0.5 shouldn't be in at launch. Having it at launch screws with progression, it invalidates other gear, it makes early tier raiding too easy. However, I still think between BWL and ZG is too early. In Vanilla it was released a few months after AQ. I would be fine with it being added in the AQ addition, which if they follow a commensurate timeline to Vanilla, would be about 4 months after ZG is added.
On a side-note, 0.5, or dungeon set 2 as I always think of it, has some of my favorite colored models in the history of the game. Not even sure why...I just always loved them. Especially the warrior one. That combination of blue and gold is so nice.
On a side-note, 0.5, or dungeon set 2 as I always think of it, has some of my favorite colored models in the history of the game. Not even sure why...I just always loved them. Especially the warrior one. That combination of blue and gold is so nice.
T0.5 should wait for the correct content patch just as it did in the original game.
If you look at the stats, you'll notice that Dungeon Set 2 isn't even a raiding set--it's a PvP set. It's most obvious when you look at the Hybrid Dungeon 2 sets alongside the Rank 10 PvP set. They are very similar with the stats that they offer and the bonuses don't really apply to PvE either. Let's look at a few examples.
Mage Dungeon 2 Set - Sorcerer's Regalia - 4-piece Bonus: When struck in combat has a chance of freezing the attacker in place for 3 sec.
Warlock Dungeon 2 Set - Deathmist Raiment - 4-piece Bonus: When struck in combat has a chance of causing the attacker to flee in terror for 2 sec.
Rogue Dungeon 2 Set - Darkmantle Armor - Boots: Increases your effective stealth level.
The list goes on. Those aren't exactly bonuses that will have any impact on PvE. It'll have a minimal effect on PvE anyways, especially since they will obviously tune up the earlier raids to address the issue of speed running.
This stuff was designed for the people who wanted solid PvP gear without having to put up with the enormous time sink of Rank 13 or Tier 2.5 from AQ40. I actually plan to run a couple of alts that will mix and match the Dungeon 2 Set with the Rank 10 PvP Set, as the set bonuses and stats complement each other really well. Think outside the box!
I think the gear should be in at launch.
Mage Dungeon 2 Set - Sorcerer's Regalia - 4-piece Bonus: When struck in combat has a chance of freezing the attacker in place for 3 sec.
Warlock Dungeon 2 Set - Deathmist Raiment - 4-piece Bonus: When struck in combat has a chance of causing the attacker to flee in terror for 2 sec.
Rogue Dungeon 2 Set - Darkmantle Armor - Boots: Increases your effective stealth level.
The list goes on. Those aren't exactly bonuses that will have any impact on PvE. It'll have a minimal effect on PvE anyways, especially since they will obviously tune up the earlier raids to address the issue of speed running.
This stuff was designed for the people who wanted solid PvP gear without having to put up with the enormous time sink of Rank 13 or Tier 2.5 from AQ40. I actually plan to run a couple of alts that will mix and match the Dungeon 2 Set with the Rank 10 PvP Set, as the set bonuses and stats complement each other really well. Think outside the box!
I think the gear should be in at launch.
Picking and choosing parts of different patches as a way to balance the game still counts as making balance changes. Don't do it. Pick a patch and go with it.
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12/21/2017 10:19 AMPosted by DazelleI also think having tier 0.5 at launch would take some of the challenge out of the first MC runs.
I would argue that not only the time to acquire all of the pieces, coupled with the difficulty of parts of the questline (Hello, Baron run) to upgrade them, the sheer expense to pay for parts, would still make MC a more attractive option to raid guilds gearing up. You still had to run endgame dungeons an obscene number of times to accumulate just the base set. I have never heard it suggested that D2 gear (edit) trivialized MC in any way whatsoever.
In fact, more often that not I heard of purple clad groups doing horribly in the Baron run. because unlike a raid, there was zero room for slacking.
Dazzel, did you actually do the entire questline in vanilla? I completed the entire line in Vanilla, and it was leaps and bounds more difficult than being 1 of 40 people being carried through MC.
12/21/2017 11:24 AMPosted by XjumPicking and choosing parts of different patches as a way to balance the game still counts as making balance changes. Don't do it. Pick a patch and go with it.
Spoken like a true poser. Your retail is showing.
I would love to have a shot at obtaining Dungeon Set 2 on the Classic realms. Whether or not they would/should be available at launch would, to me, definitely depend on how they planned to construct the server.
If it's a Franken-Patch server, with all content available from the get-go, I'd like to see them in from the start. If it's a progression server, it would make a lot of sense for them to appear in the due course of the patch progression. After all, the quests only have full value once you actually have a significant number of items from the set, and barring really good luck that will still take a long time.
I would be sad if a static patch solution were chosen that excluded Dungeon Set 2, but at the same time if that's what it took to get the earlier version of AV for example that's a worthy sacrifice. I wouldn't use Dungeon Set 2 as a major decider in which static patch the server should play on.
If it's a Franken-Patch server, with all content available from the get-go, I'd like to see them in from the start. If it's a progression server, it would make a lot of sense for them to appear in the due course of the patch progression. After all, the quests only have full value once you actually have a significant number of items from the set, and barring really good luck that will still take a long time.
I would be sad if a static patch solution were chosen that excluded Dungeon Set 2, but at the same time if that's what it took to get the earlier version of AV for example that's a worthy sacrifice. I wouldn't use Dungeon Set 2 as a major decider in which static patch the server should play on.
That quest chain was totally baller.
12/21/2017 10:28 AMPosted by MogarI agree with you 0.5 shouldn't be in at launch. Having it at launch screws with progression, it invalidates other gear, it makes early tier raiding too easy. However, I still think between BWL and ZG is too early. In Vanilla it was released a few months after AQ. I would be fine with it being added in the AQ addition, which if they follow a commensurate timeline to Vanilla, would be about 4 months after ZG is added.
Going to have to disagree, if your were already able to do BWL you did not go after any of these sets and anything from ZG was ultimately better than most of the items (rogue and war 0.5 had some good stats). Ironically better itemized gear dropped from the bosses you summoned from the quest than the actual gear itself. The only time any of the gear would be relevant would be be pre-DM otherwise there is no real point to even do the quest outside of the summon-able bosses.
12/21/2017 10:55 AMPosted by Chriss44AC13If you look at the stats, you'll notice that Dungeon Set 2 isn't even a raiding set--it's a PvP set. It's most obvious when you look at the Hybrid Dungeon 2 sets alongside the Rank 10 PvP set. They are very similar with the stats that they offer and the bonuses don't really apply to PvE either. Let's look at a few examples.
Mage Dungeon 2 Set - Sorcerer's Regalia - 4-piece Bonus: When struck in combat has a chance of freezing the attacker in place for 3 sec.
Warlock Dungeon 2 Set - Deathmist Raiment - 4-piece Bonus: When struck in combat has a chance of causing the attacker to flee in terror for 2 sec.
Rogue Dungeon 2 Set - Darkmantle Armor - Boots: Increases your effective stealth level.
The list goes on. Those aren't exactly bonuses that will have any impact on PvE. It'll have a minimal effect on PvE anyways, especially since they will obviously tune up the earlier raids to address the issue of speed running.
This stuff was designed for the people who wanted solid PvP gear without having to put up with the enormous time sink of Rank 13 or Tier 2.5 from AQ40. I actually plan to run a couple of alts that will mix and match the Dungeon 2 Set with the Rank 10 PvP Set, as the set bonuses and stats complement each other really well. Think outside the box!
I think the gear should be in at launch.
This is a pretty big simplification. In Vanilla, it's a PvP set if it has a lot of stamina relative to similar tiered gear. I don't know if this is the case for tier .5, but I doubt it. Point is, a set isn't a "PvP set" just because of the set bonuses.
The tier .5 seconds are notable for their extremely cool, and very good set bonuses. The rogue 4 piece set bonus [Chance on melee attack to restore 35 energy] is insanely strong in PvE and PvP. In fact, 4 pieces of the rogue tier .5 is likely on par with tier 2 or possibly even beyond that, depending on the proc rate.
The tier .5 sets should not be in the game at launch. One reason for this is that there are several added bosses to 10 mans/5 mans as part of the tier .5 quests, and these bosses have really good loot that would be out of place early on. Adding these bosses/their loot early in Vanilla progression would throw things off.
The tier .5 gear is generally just better itemized than other early Vanilla gear and it would throw things off if it was in the game from day 1.
12/21/2017 11:41 AMPosted by EfdaqefawewIn Vanilla, it's a PvP set if it has a lot of stamina relative to similar tiered gear. I don't know if this is the case for tier .5, but I doubt it. Point is, a set isn't a "PvP set" just because of the set bonuses.
The tier .5 seconds are notable for their extremely cool, and very good set bonuses. The rogue 4 piece set bonus [Chance on melee attack to restore 35 energy] is insanely strong in PvE and PvP. In fact, 4 pieces of the rogue tier .5 is likely on par with tier 2 or possibly even beyond that, depending on the proc rate.
The tier .5 sets should not be in the game at launch. One reason for this is that there are several added bosses to 10 mans/5 mans as part of the tier .5 quests, and these bosses have really good loot that would be out of place early on. Adding these bosses/their loot early in Vanilla progression would throw things off.
Peek at my gear (ignore the fishing hat). It is an example of the .5.
12/21/2017 11:41 AMPosted by EfdaqefawewThe tier .5 gear is generally just better itemized than other early Vanilla gear and it would throw things off if it was in the game from day 1.
You underestimate just how long it took to accumulate the D1 set, then amount of time it would take to accumulate the sheer gold needed for the quests. Having it in at release would throw absolutely nothing off.
By the time your guild had mostly D1 gear, they'd be venturing into Onyxia and MC.
12/21/2017 11:44 AMPosted by Thermalaise12/21/2017 11:41 AMPosted by EfdaqefawewIn Vanilla, it's a PvP set if it has a lot of stamina relative to similar tiered gear. I don't know if this is the case for tier .5, but I doubt it. Point is, a set isn't a "PvP set" just because of the set bonuses.
The tier .5 seconds are notable for their extremely cool, and very good set bonuses. The rogue 4 piece set bonus [Chance on melee attack to restore 35 energy] is insanely strong in PvE and PvP. In fact, 4 pieces of the rogue tier .5 is likely on par with tier 2 or possibly even beyond that, depending on the proc rate.
The tier .5 sets should not be in the game at launch. One reason for this is that there are several added bosses to 10 mans/5 mans as part of the tier .5 quests, and these bosses have really good loot that would be out of place early on. Adding these bosses/their loot early in Vanilla progression would throw things off.
Peek at my gear (ignore the fishing hat). It is an example of the .5.12/21/2017 11:41 AMPosted by EfdaqefawewThe tier .5 gear is generally just better itemized than other early Vanilla gear and it would throw things off if it was in the game from day 1.
You underestimate just how long it took to accumulate the D1 set, then amount of time it would take to accumulate the sheer gold needed for the quests. Having it in at release would throw absolutely nothing off.
By the time your guild had mostly D1 gear, they'd be venturing into Onyxia and MC.
My recollection is that you can trade tier 0 bracers for tier .5 bracers for free, more or less. You talk to some dude in Orgrimmar, solo some quest in Winterspring, and then you get your tier .5 bracers.
By the way, tier 0 bracers were BoE and could be equipped at level 52.
So you're wrong, it would absolutely throw off balance early on. Having the tier .5 bosses in the game early would involve having items like this:
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=22335
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?item=22339
...which are insanely strong. Was +spell hit even in the game at release?
I don't feel too strongly about this stuff, but I think we all lose if stuff like tier .5 bosses and AV are in the game at release. Having that stuff devalues a lot of content that will just not be worth doing.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeon_Set_2
You should probably go back and research all that you have to do and turn in before you get to summon Valthalak. Jumping from the bracers/gloves turnin and right into Valthalek is pretty disingenuous.
And that is assuming you were able to complete the stupidly difficult 45 minute Baron run first.
Really, you guys make it sould like those items were dropping from the trees and Valthalak was just waltzing around waiting to be looted by passersby.
You should probably go back and research all that you have to do and turn in before you get to summon Valthalak. Jumping from the bracers/gloves turnin and right into Valthalek is pretty disingenuous.
Items you will need
120g to buy a [Hallowed Brazier] (Requires Argent Dawn - Honored)
1x [Flask of Supreme Power]
The following items are required to Summon the Duke of Cynders. You must also be Friendly with Cenarion Hold
1x Twilight Trappings Set:
1x [Twilight Cultist Robe]
1x [Twilight Cultist Mantle]
1x [Twilight Cultist Cowl]
1x [Twilight Cultist Medallion of Station]
1x [Large Brilliant Shard]
3x [Faded Abyssal Crest]
You can either buy them at the Auction House or summon 3 Abyssal Templars at a Wind stone in Silithus, which will require 3 Twilight Trappings sets.
1x [Signet of Beckoning: Fire] (or luck)
1x [Dark Rune]
5x [Firebloom]
And that is assuming you were able to complete the stupidly difficult 45 minute Baron run first.
Really, you guys make it sould like those items were dropping from the trees and Valthalak was just waltzing around waiting to be looted by passersby.
1 Like
wait until after the AQ war effort begins to have T.5
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeon_Set_2
You should probably go back and research all that you have to do and turn in before you get to summon Valthalak. Jumping from the bracers/gloves turnin and right into Valthalek is pretty disingenuous.
[quote]Items you will need
120g to buy a [Hallowed Brazier] (Requires Argent Dawn - Honored)
1x [Flask of Supreme Power]
The following items are required to Summon the Duke of Cynders. You must also be Friendly with Cenarion Hold
1x Twilight Trappings Set:
1x [Twilight Cultist Robe]
1x [Twilight Cultist Mantle]
1x [Twilight Cultist Cowl]
1x [Twilight Cultist Medallion of Station]
1x [Large Brilliant Shard]
3x [Faded Abyssal Crest]
You can either buy them at the Auction House or summon 3 Abyssal Templars at a Wind stone in Silithus, which will require 3 Twilight Trappings sets.
1x [Signet of Beckoning: Fire] (or luck)
1x [Dark Rune]
5x [Firebloom]
I mean...this just only bolsters my point. Consider that [Twilight Cultist] armor should only be available after the War Effort starts. I think most of us agree that the War Effort should not be available from day 1. If it is, you can farm extremely good blues from Dukes in Silithus.
All of this stuff qualifies as "catch up gear," and it will drastically change the game if it's available from day one.
12/21/2017 12:19 PMPosted by EfdaqefawewI mean...this just only bolsters my point. Consider that [Twilight Cultist] armor should only be available after the War Effort starts. I think most of us agree that the War Effort should not be available from day 1. If it is, you can farm extremely good blues from Dukes in Silithus.
I agree that cultist gear should only happen after the war effort. So I fail to see what the issue would be in having the D2 quests in at the beginning? The very fact that you would not be able to get the cultist gear would naturally hold off any summoning of Valthalak. The "problem" solves itself.
Right?
I mean c'mon, do you honestly think that raid guilds are going to focus so much time and energy on 40 people doing the D2 chain just to get a slight better chance at success in MC? Really? That's assuming they can even get past the 45 minute baron?
D2 was geared toward casuals who could not invest time doing long-arsed raids. It took a loooooooong time to complete, but was broken up into small digestible chunks that could be dealt with.
To sum up: Raiders were not doing the D2 questline in order to be more successful in raids.
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I agree that cultist gear should only happen after the war effort. So I fail to see what the issue would be in having the D2 quests in at the beginning? The very fact that you would not be able to get the cultist gear would naturally hold off any summoning of Valthalak. The "problem" solves itself.
Right?
I'd have to take a look at the tier .5 quests in greater detail. Other bosses were added besides Valathak, though I don't remember how far along in the chain you had to be to summon them.
In general, it seems a little odd to have quests that are impossible to complete in the game.
I mean c'mon, do you honestly think that raid guilds are going to focus so much time and energy on 40 people doing the D2 chain just to get a slight better chance at success in MC? Really? That's assuming they can even get past the 45 minute baron?
It only takes one person to be able to summon Valahak. There are items that are worth getting...like that blue ring with +1% spell hit. I doubt that's easily replaceable with anything for a long while.
In general, I think people just don't grasp how much better gear that was added later was. It will change the game considerably if it's all there from day 1.
I don't mean to come off too strongly about this stuff, because I like the idea and execution of tier .5 gear, I just think it's naive to believe having all these gear options early on won't change the experience of gearing up...it will. I worry that older gear options will be ignored if they add all the newer stuff.
12/21/2017 10:55 AMPosted by Chriss44AC13If you look at the stats, you'll notice that Dungeon Set 2 isn't even a raiding set--it's a PvP set. It's most obvious when you look at the Hybrid Dungeon 2 sets alongside the Rank 10 PvP set. They are very similar with the stats that they offer and the bonuses don't really apply to PvE either. Let's look at a few examples.
Mage Dungeon 2 Set - Sorcerer's Regalia - 4-piece Bonus: When struck in combat has a chance of freezing the attacker in place for 3 sec.
Warlock Dungeon 2 Set - Deathmist Raiment - 4-piece Bonus: When struck in combat has a chance of causing the attacker to flee in terror for 2 sec.
Rogue Dungeon 2 Set - Darkmantle Armor - Boots: Increases your effective stealth level.
The list goes on. Those aren't exactly bonuses that will have any impact on PvE. It'll have a minimal effect on PvE anyways, especially since they will obviously tune up the earlier raids to address the issue of speed running.
Actually if you look at ALL the stats, not just the ones you cherry picked you'll notice they are actually good for both. The first two examples you gave are also on the tier 0 version of those sets which people absolutely used when they started to raid. You'll also notice a lot of the T0 sets traded Spirit for Crit/Hit/haste, all of which are significant PvE upgrades.
So sure, the T0.5 sets aren't perfectly itemized for PvE (It was vanilla though, itemization was generally bad on all gear), but they were definitely an upgrade for PvE over the T0 sets if you actually look at all of their stats and not just a couple of the bad ones.
I would argue that not only the time to acquire all of the pieces, coupled with the difficulty of parts of the questline (Hello, Baron run) to upgrade them, the sheer expense to pay for parts, would still make MC a more attractive option to raid guilds gearing up. You still had to run endgame dungeons an obscene number of times to accumulate just the base set.
12/21/2017 11:44 AMPosted by ThermalaiseYou underestimate just how long it took to accumulate the D1 set, then amount of time it would take to accumulate the sheer gold needed for the quests. Having it in at release would throw absolutely nothing off.
By the time your guild had mostly D1 gear, they'd be venturing into Onyxia and MC.
I think you underestimate just how long it took to gear up in MC back in Vanilla, at least with T0.5 you could farm it throughout the week, you didn't have that option with MC which is why you'd still want to try and get T0.5
I have never heard it suggested that D2 gear (edit) trivialized MC in any way whatsoever.
That's because MC was trivialized long before 0.5 came out.
Dazzel, did you actually do the entire questline in vanilla? I completed the entire line in Vanilla, and it was leaps and bounds more difficult than being 1 of 40 people being carried through MC.
I did for fun yes, but as I was geared through BWL/AQ40 it was trivial for me. I just had an established warrior/priest and never really did the alt thing :)
You'll also notice a lot of the T0 sets traded Spirit for Crit/Hit/haste
There's no haste in Vanilla.
I'd rather hold off on raids and let players grind the .5 set quests. It could be a good way to build community and develop skills for many players who aren't ready for vanilla.
I don't think MC or any raid bosses or content should be opened until one of each set is built on a server.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Deathmist_Raiment shows the lock set. Tier 0 set bonuses are same as tier .5 ones and thus are pvp and non raid pve bonuses. Upgrading them gives them the raid useful individual item bonuses of hit rating, spell power, crit rating.
But I agree it doesn't feel right for pve progression. It takes a long time to get the drops. The quest chain has you revisit a lot of dungeons which is great fun, but the farm time for drops of tier 0 set are real. Like the pants off Baron didn't drop for me for 6 months of casual running.
The set chain is really just for completionists. If you have time to do that many 5 mans, you have time to get into a casual raid guild/affiliation.
Another thing that bothers me about 0/.5 sets is that for some specs the set really isn't worth it in terms of progression. Why would it be wrong for them to have another set built for them to reward the effort they put into attaining it? Then just make all post .5 content more difficult?
I don't think MC or any raid bosses or content should be opened until one of each set is built on a server.
12/21/2017 10:55 AMPosted by Chriss44AC13If you look at the stats, you'll notice that Dungeon Set 2 isn't even a raiding set--it's a PvP set.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Deathmist_Raiment shows the lock set. Tier 0 set bonuses are same as tier .5 ones and thus are pvp and non raid pve bonuses. Upgrading them gives them the raid useful individual item bonuses of hit rating, spell power, crit rating.
But I agree it doesn't feel right for pve progression. It takes a long time to get the drops. The quest chain has you revisit a lot of dungeons which is great fun, but the farm time for drops of tier 0 set are real. Like the pants off Baron didn't drop for me for 6 months of casual running.
The set chain is really just for completionists. If you have time to do that many 5 mans, you have time to get into a casual raid guild/affiliation.
Another thing that bothers me about 0/.5 sets is that for some specs the set really isn't worth it in terms of progression. Why would it be wrong for them to have another set built for them to reward the effort they put into attaining it? Then just make all post .5 content more difficult?