I just want to point out that I’m indifferent to raid re-balancing. I just see a lot of double standards in logic and want people to clarify why one part of the game deserves special attention when the same logic they use to justify changes to that particular aspect of the game, also applies to the rest of the game as well.
People claim the whole Classic package is important, therefore the logic used for wanting the raids to feel more like their launches should apply to the rest of the game, in my opinion.
Pretty much. We won’t get PvP gear and BWL until they are released together, and while R14 gear is basically equivalent to T2 and it seems akin, you’re going to have people stuck in partial tier and pre-bis being blown up by Warriors wearing nothing but partial tier and Valor wielding Arcanite Reapers and Bonereaver’s Edges.
By the time BWL is cleared and R14s are hitting the shelves a couple months after (minimum, absolute pure minimum R1->R14 takes 3 months due to RP calculations), the PvP gear will be diminished due to the amount of tier available. Except for Warriors, who will again power spike and destroy clothies even faster.
Ironsides factually destroyed arguements with consumable tallies and he was just talking about mana regeneration. When you consider Scrolls of Strength, Brute Force and Giants stacking, Mighty Rage Potion, Onyxia buff, Songflower Serenade, Frostmaul Eko, Mongoose Elixir, you’re talking 500-750 bonus attack power and something like 10% bonus crit. This is for a Warrior who as we have evidenced, is the best-scaling melee. Do you guys know how much AP and crit a pre-bis Warrior has?
Try 650-750 AP total pre-battle shout. With around 20-23% crit. When you give them double that and crit cap them? Yeah they fold content in half like Brian Shaw folds frying pans.
As Harland put it, Classic should NOT be World of Naxxcraft. There was a whole lot of Warcraft pre-Naxx. And that should not be forgotten about.
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And in my opinion, if Naxx needs to be sacrificed at the altar in favor of other parts of Vanilla. I’d be more than happy to do it.
I think too many people just want to sew their oats - more than happy for everything earlier to be a 2 second face roll. They don’t want the experience authentic experience. Can you imagine the crying if scholo took 2 hours? MC taking hours?
You are making sure that you remember that when Scholo became a quick run, that was after we’ve been farming those 5 mans, and raids and outgeared them, right? And that when MC became a quick run, it’s because we’ve done the bosses so many times that we knew how to go in there and do them…
You’re never going to get that same difficulty back. You can only have one first time.
Any average group by today’s standards, know most of what it takes to clear most of classics raids and 5 mans easily: Kill adds, dispel, get out of the group if you have the debuff. The ability to AoE dungeons with a skilled tank is way more common knowledge today (and yes, you could always do that through vanilla, it was just up to if your tank knew how to keep threat through that, and use cooldowns to help the healer). But also remember a lot of the time was also the fire resist gear farming, having enough people with the rep that you needed to be capable of clearing MC, people constantly moving up to higher progressed guilds, and being replaced by someone in greens…
That’s the thing. I’m not trying to bring the difficulty back. Everything is known. All I want is some form of the authentic Vanilla experience. 1.12 or private servers whatever you want to choose, is not it.
But I now realize, a lot of people don’t care for the authentic Vanilla experience. Not one bit - especially the nochangers.
Yep, including Dire Maul in the stage 1 release is a big mistake. It’s going to cheese Molten Core quite a bit. Add in the increase of debut slots from 8 to 16 and Molten Core is going to fall quite a bit faster than it did in vanilla wow.
I know that’s what you and Harland were after in the old forums and I entirely agree. This is about an authentic experience; regardless of skill level or how long the content lasts some people.
Apparently this a very difficult concept for some to understand.
Here’s the thing you get with reverting to a completely 1.1 talents/patch:
Most PvE specs are untouched by and large.
There are some real tangible differences (mages lose about 6% hit&mana regen, rogues lose some weapon skill, warrior dps tree because arms and the optimum tank build becomes something real strange.
I’m unable to comment about healing specs as that’s not something I’m knowledgeable about) but the majority of specs will perform about as well as they would on 1.12 as far as DPS goes.
Flasks fade on death which is massive.
Black Lotus is BoP so flask availability is severely limited.
Paladin buffs only last 5 minutes
Most gear you get, while technically upgrades, offer such an insignificant boost that you’ll wonder why you’re doing that instance for the 5th time.
There are some changes to +hit that will devalue it slightly.
The issue with Ragnaros is that he is a simple boss and we know the best way to kill him now. Full glass cannon, no resistance gear. it offers you the best chance at surviving the fight since the only part that should be causing wipes would be the submerge.
There’s nothing that would make him harder other than ramping up raid damage so it could burn through fire prot pots quicker than the boss dies. Other than rework the fight entirely.
People mention 1.1 threat as some great limiting factor but they really don’t understand just how easy it is to shim sham it. I’ve tanked as 5/31/15 before (maybe had 2 points in defiance iirc) and have been able to put up north of 500 TPS in a gear setup that wasn’t even necessarily built for threat. In preraid gear.
So you’d think because of this, melee/ranged dps could hit 550/650 DPS and not pull aggro–but no more, right? Well, wrong.
Alliance have salvation which reduces their dps’ threat gen from 1=1 to 1=0.7, and horde have tranquil air which can bring that to 1=0.8.
This means that their potential ceiling for dps is even higher than what I listed above. Even higher when you realize rogues have vanish, hunters FD, warriors have a base threat gen in zerker stance of 0.8 already, etc.
I’ve been suspicious of threat issues for a long time in early WoW and suspected them to be a product of a faulty rage generation system.
Anyone who was raiding back then and was in good with the guild’s tanks will remember that they actually had to remove pieces of their gear so they could hold aggro in non raid environments. Hell, our tank straight up couldn’t hold aggro in Scholomance unless he unequipped his pants and chest piece.
Obviously I wasn’t big into theorycraft back then, but here’s something I’ve dug up while trying to figure out why threat was such an issue back then. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CM8GAI2edBwJ:cesspit.net/drupal/node/date/2005/01/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1-d
" > Now, regarding improving the warrior’s overall rage generation. We’ve found that there are indeed a few issues with rage generation as a result of bugs. Warriors (and druids in bear form) are intended to gain some rage on block,dodge,parry events, but apparently this isn’t working correctly. This needs to be fixed asap in order for warriors to meet their total expected rage generation.
In addition, while our tests have indicated that players are getting the intended 5% miss rate while using a single max-skill weapon against even level enemies (yes, we’ve tested this exhaustively, and cannot reproduce the 9% miss rate you’re reporting for normal swings), we have found the bug causing abilities (ie: heroic strike, sunder armor, etc) to miss around 9-10% of the time under the above conditions instead of the intended 5%. This does mean that warriors are getting the “miss” even about twice as often as they should. Obviously, this needs to be rectified asap, since it directly impacts the warriors DPS and rage use (since missing wastes 20% of the rage cost of the ability)."
I’m of the mindset the problem with rage generation and by extension threat generation back then was the result of bugs, nothing more, nothing less.
That depends on who actually comes to show on these servers. If it’s every guild I’ve competed against on private servers for the better part of 8 years? Probably like…40 or 50 guilds worth? Maybe more? I’d bet money there will be a MC clearing guild on every server at most within 2 months of the launch.
Fwiw, I’ll comment on the debuff system as well, 8 vs 16 debuffs.
Debuffs are classified based on their prioritization. Higher debuffs knock off lower ones and the higher a prio a debuff is the harder it is to knock off. A fireball DoT will never knock off a sunder armor for example.
If we use 8 debuffs, generally guilds will use the following
Sunder Armor
Faerie Fire
CoE
CoS
CoR
Winter’s Chill
The remaining two will be whatever your guild deems necessary. They likely will not be high priority debuffs though. If for whatever reason demo shout is actually useful for reducing damage, that might be number 7, and thunder clap might be 8 if you’re really donkeying it up. If you don’t need it, I’d say your guild would probably get a bigger use out of
It’s not just the threat generation, it’s the entire kit set that’s associated; including taunt. Both warrior and bear taunt got buffs for naxx.
But it’s also not just threat management, nor is anyone really worried about new better strategies or speed clears.
This has everything to do with building as authentic an experience as possible; everything from the leveling process to the final raid boss; it all matters.
The problem is, 1.12 in its raw format does not provide that.
I think that’s where some are confused; we’re not trying to make things harder or prevent speed clears, we only care about authenticity.
What exactly do you mean by this. I don’t recall any significant changes to taunt, nor have I found any documentation or evidence suggesting threat values were altered.
Authenticity is as ambiguous as a word as “viable” on these forums.
I thought you private server guys had all the original authentic Blizzard code straight from the development.
Taunt Debuff.
Beta version
The mob is forced to attack you for 3 seconds. Later taunts by other players override this.
1.1.0 update
You are given threat equal to the mob’s previous aggro target, permanently. Importantly, you won’t necessarily get as much threat as the highest person on the mob’s list, only as much as whoever is currently tanking it.
1.11 update
You gain complete aggro on the mob at the instant you taunt. Usually you would need 10% more threat to gain aggro (see section 3), but a taunt now gives you instant aggro on the mob. Of course if other people are generating significant threat on the mob, they could exceed your threat by more than 10% before the taunt debuff wears off, and will gain aggro as soon as it does. There is no limit to the amount of threat you can gain from Taunt
It’s a very large buff vs the version that persisted for the majority of Vanilla wow. As we have tried to explain numerous times; the game itself changed significantly for naxxramas.
Technically it read “Taunt: Now gives the target just enough threat to attack you. Cooldown added.” So highest threat +1 I’d guess. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Patch_1.1.0
I’m assuming you got your phrase from Kenco’s post from evil empire https://web.archive.org/web/20061109034626/http://evilempireguild.org:80/guides/kenco2.php
?
It is not specific about how it was different before, only how it works after. Seeing as how that taunt post was made post 1.11, I’ll take a look at his post pre 1.11 (done in january of the same year) https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Kenco%27s_research_on_threat
Casting taunt causes three effects.
A) The warrior is given as much threat as the person who currently has the mob’s aggro. Obviously if the warrior has aggro, this will do nothing. Also, this effect will not lower the warriors threat. For example, if player 1 has 100 threat and aggro, a warrior could have 105 but not aggro; after taunt he would still be on 105 threat. B) The mob recalculates its actual aggro target. If the warrior was on the mob’s hatelist before the original aggro target, the mob’s actual aggro target will switch to the warrior. Otherwise, the mob will remember it’s original target. C) The normal taunt debuff. The mob is forced to attack the warrior, even if the warrior is not its actual aggro target.
The threat that the warrior gains from (A) is permanent, regardless of the outcome of (B). Note that it will not necessarily give the warrior the equal highest threat on the mob. If player 1 has 100 threat and aggro, Player 2 has 109 threat but not aggro, and the warrior has 0 threat, then the warrior is given 100 threat, not 109, so he could easily lose aggro to Player 2 after taunting.
Not really seeing a tremendous difference to be honest.
Dunno about druids but paladins limiting factor isnt really threat (since the dps can/should keep themselves in check) but the lack of a taunt which makes tank swaps a lot harder than it is for warriors or druids.
feral/protadins can put out stupid amounts of threat. honestly probably more than warriors when it comes to feral druids at least until the raid gears up.
the issue with prot comes with them not having a taunt, which makes itself known as soon as you hit your first annihilator in MC. they can do just about everything with enough effort though–but why not pick a warrior
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