Loot trading can be abused in a lot of ways. It is a positive change in organized raiding, but it has so many negatives in small group content. It causes everything from group stacking (eg plate only) to roll stacking (friends roll when they don't need then trade).
I really hope they only allow it in raids, preferrably ML only raids. If they do that it would fine.
11/06/2018 06:41 PMPosted by AbelmLoot trading can be abused in a lot of ways. It is a positive change in organized raiding, but it has so many negatives in small group content. It causes everything from group stacking (eg plate only) to roll stacking (friends roll when they don't need then trade).
I really hope they only allow it in raids, preferrably ML only raids. If they do that it would fine.
i was making threads about this, until i found out once someone in your group equips the item, it's no longer loot tradeable, We just need to make that common practice.
and if they refuse to equip it they are a ninja who is planning to trade that item to someone else in the party, and can be dealt with by the community and blacklist.
In retail ofc it doesn't matter, since cross realm, but on a 3k pop vanilla server you run in to the same people constantly.
11/06/2018 06:45 PMPosted by Meleecounter
and if they refuse to equip it they are a ninja who is planning to trade that item to someone else in the party, and can be dealt with by the community and blacklist.
Or they could just enable it only for raids, so we don't need to have "community blacklists". What does that even mean? Are people going to have a piece of paper with names and then go: "Oh I think this guy is on my list!"
It's dumb. Raids are their target audience for this loot trading implement. They can disable it for 5 man parties, and people can enjoy dungeons as they level. Once you get to max level and begin raiding, you'll most likely be doing that within guilds ANYWAY. But the majority of dungeoning as you level, that involves pugging in one way shape or form. Whether that is you and friends with a few strangers, or you being the outcast.
Either way: DISABLE FOR SMALLER PARTIES, ENABLE FOR RAIDS. Problem solved, we have middle ground and nobody has to worry.
11/06/2018 06:50 PMPosted by Aideves11/06/2018 06:45 PMPosted by Meleecounter
and if they refuse to equip it they are a ninja who is planning to trade that item to someone else in the party, and can be dealt with by the community and blacklist.
Or they could just enable it only for raids, so we don't need to have "community blacklists". What does that even mean? Are people going to have a piece of paper with names and then go: "Oh I think this guy is on my list!"
It's dumb. Raids are their target audience for this loot trading implement. They can disable it for 5 man parties, and people can enjoy dungeons as they level. Once you get to max level and begin raiding, you'll most likely be doing that within guilds ANYWAY. But the majority of dungeoning as you level, that involves pugging in one way shape or form. Whether that is you and friends with a few strangers, or you being the outcast.
Either way: DISABLE FOR SMALLER PARTIES, ENABLE FOR RAIDS. Problem solved, we have middle ground and nobody has to worry.
blacklists are a addon that warn you when someone you blacklisted has joined your group.
Also I don't want it in the game either, but we don't have that option.
Issue: Blizard gets too many cs tickets about loot, which is not really an issue in retail anymore because personal loot.
Possible Solutions:
1. Allow loot trading.
2. Only allow loot trading within 20/40 man raids
3. Allow loot trading between full guild groups(all-sizes)
4. CS don't accept any loot-based tickets - too bad, so sad.
Possible Solutions:
1. Allow loot trading.
2. Only allow loot trading within 20/40 man raids
3. Allow loot trading between full guild groups(all-sizes)
4. CS don't accept any loot-based tickets - too bad, so sad.
11/06/2018 06:50 PMPosted by Aideves11/06/2018 06:45 PMPosted by Meleecounter
and if they refuse to equip it they are a ninja who is planning to trade that item to someone else in the party, and can be dealt with by the community and blacklist.
Or they could just enable it only for raids, so we don't need to have "community blacklists". What does that even mean? Are people going to have a piece of paper with names and then go: "Oh I think this guy is on my list!"
It's dumb. Raids are their target audience for this loot trading implement. They can disable it for 5 man parties, and people can enjoy dungeons as they level. Once you get to max level and begin raiding, you'll most likely be doing that within guilds ANYWAY. But the majority of dungeoning as you level, that involves pugging in one way shape or form. Whether that is you and friends with a few strangers, or you being the outcast.
Either way: DISABLE FOR SMALLER PARTIES, ENABLE FOR RAIDS. Problem solved, we have middle ground and nobody has to worry.
You can't really use this in raids either as even pugs have raids and this would definitely create a lot of behind the scenes item deals.
Example;
Master looter in pug raid - Receives msg from such and such. "Hey I'll pay you 1000g for that item that just dropped. Ml finds a friend to help roll on it who already has said item or some scenario. Friend receives item and then trades it to the sale target.
Or even more simplified version...
Person who doesn't need loot in pug raid rolls anyways because he knows he has a 2hour window to sell it to other elligible raiders for quick cash.
What ends up happening is you create a community of people pretending to "need" items that actually don't. It makes ninja looting harder to track and so much easier to conceal. All it takes is having duplicates (already obtained) of the item you want to sell or give to a friend.
I don't see a problem with disabling Loot Trading for groups, just like I don't personally have a problem with it being in or out entirely.
However, the Devs have addressed this in the panel and explained why they decided to include Loot Trading. The minimal impact that it has on gameplay does not justify using the old system that resulted in Tickets being opened for honest mistakes and taking Customer Service's attention away from more pressing matter. And having two different loot systems would be even more problematic to introduce into an already stitched together game.
This is not a battle worth fighting for. Sharding is where people's attention should be directed, as it has yet to be decided how it will be handled or if it will even be included to begin with.
Also yes, blacklisting was a thing and yes, it mattered. If you get a bad rep and the big guilds blacklist you, it's gameover. I've seen it happened.
However, the Devs have addressed this in the panel and explained why they decided to include Loot Trading. The minimal impact that it has on gameplay does not justify using the old system that resulted in Tickets being opened for honest mistakes and taking Customer Service's attention away from more pressing matter. And having two different loot systems would be even more problematic to introduce into an already stitched together game.
This is not a battle worth fighting for. Sharding is where people's attention should be directed, as it has yet to be decided how it will be handled or if it will even be included to begin with.
Also yes, blacklisting was a thing and yes, it mattered. If you get a bad rep and the big guilds blacklist you, it's gameover. I've seen it happened.
Classic wow... so it SHOULD be strict if at all.
11/06/2018 07:00 PMPosted by CerrberusI don't see a problem with disabling Loot Trading for groups, just like I don't personally have a problem with it being in or out entirely.
However, the Devs have addressed this in the panel and explained why they decided to include Loot Trading. The minimal impact that it has on gameplay does not justify using the old system that resulted in Tickets being opened for honest mistakes and taking Customer Service's attention away from more pressing matter. And having two different loot systems would be even more problematic to introduce into an already stitched together game.
This is not a battle worth fighting for. Sharding is where people's attention should be directed, as it has yet to be decided how it will be handled or if it will even be included to begin with.
Also yes, blacklisting was a thing and yes, it mattered. If you get a bad rep and the big guilds blacklist you, it's gameover. I've seen it happened.
Minimial impact? Maybe not for you. For people like me? It is. And even if I got an Add-On for blacklisting as suggested above, do you know how many people are going to abuse this system in low-level PUGs? Blizzard is essentially saying, to their paying customers who are RETURNING to play their game (I stopped playing retail) that they are putting their needs before ours.
Sorry but, that's not very customer oriented, or community oriented. I would like to know I'm being considered. You want an even simpler point? This loot trade window was not available in vanilla. Soooo, yeah. End of story, it doesn't belong. Sharding is just a little help at the beginning, then gone. I could just AFK for two weeks, they remove sharding and then I play.
Loot trading? It will be there, no matter what. And it's terrible.
11/06/2018 06:57 PMPosted by Gattz<span class="truncated">...</span>
Or they could just enable it only for raids, so we don't need to have "community blacklists". What does that even mean? Are people going to have a piece of paper with names and then go: "Oh I think this guy is on my list!"
It's dumb. Raids are their target audience for this loot trading implement. They can disable it for 5 man parties, and people can enjoy dungeons as they level. Once you get to max level and begin raiding, you'll most likely be doing that within guilds ANYWAY. But the majority of dungeoning as you level, that involves pugging in one way shape or form. Whether that is you and friends with a few strangers, or you being the outcast.
Either way: DISABLE FOR SMALLER PARTIES, ENABLE FOR RAIDS. Problem solved, we have middle ground and nobody has to worry.
You can't really use this in raids either as even pugs have raids and this would definitely create a lot of behind the scenes item deals.
Example;
Master looter in pug raid - Receives msg from such and such. "Hey I'll pay you 1000g for that item that just dropped. Ml finds a friend to help roll on it who already has said item or some scenario. Friend receives item and then trades it to the sale target.
Or even more simplified version...
Person who doesn't need loot in pug raid rolls anyways because he knows he has a 2hour window to sell it to other elligible raiders for quick cash.
What ends up happening is you create a community of people pretending to "need" items that actually don't. It makes ninja looting harder to track and so much easier to conceal. All it takes is having duplicates (already obtained) of the item you want to sell or give to a friend.
I know, but what can we do about it, they already announced it, and blizzard is like a 5 year old, they would rather do something none wants than being proven wrong.
They would rather lose half their subs than backpeddle on a change.
At first when Ion mentioned loot trading I understood the part about CS tickets. But then I put a bit of thought into it and...
This is absolutely true.
Loot trading will have too much of an impact on the Classic community.
So the way I see it, Blizz should step up to the plate. Classic deserves its own support team. Why not hire people to do that job? Or make it automated like the item restoration system with the necessary limitations?
11/06/2018 06:41 PMPosted by AbelmLoot trading can be abused in a lot of ways.
This is absolutely true.
Loot trading will have too much of an impact on the Classic community.
So the way I see it, Blizz should step up to the plate. Classic deserves its own support team. Why not hire people to do that job? Or make it automated like the item restoration system with the necessary limitations?
11/06/2018 07:14 PMPosted by XojaAt first when Ion mentioned loot trading I understood the part about CS tickets. But then I put a bit of thought into it and...11/06/2018 06:41 PMPosted by AbelmLoot trading can be abused in a lot of ways.
This is absolutely true.
Loot trading will have too much of an impact on the Classic community.
So the way I see it, Blizz should step up to the plate. Classic deserves its own support team. Why not hire people to do that job? Or make it automated like the item restoration system with the necessary limitations?
isn't that automated thing just a fancier loot trading?
So when they added LFR to Cata we saw the problems. Everyone rolled need on everything they could so they could hold loot hostage to trade later or give to friends. Ninjaing was incredibly rampant and it was a major issue.
It was fixed. Rolling need on an item bound it to you. Even if it was a boe item. And despite what people here seem to believe, once incentive was taken away to be a ninja people went back to doing as often as they normally did which was fairly uncommon.
So for raiding it means you don't ticket gms for ml mistakes.
For groups it works like so.
You roll need on an item and win? You can't trade it.
How it worked in classic?
Your roll need on an item and win? You can't trade it.
The only real change here is the incentive to roll need on a boe blue or epic item is gone since you'll no longer be able to list it on the AH.
And this is perhaps me giving Blizzard some degree of credit. Because it's hard to believe anyone could be foolish enough to bring back a broken system we've already experienced once. I fully expect it will be the "fixed" version of loot trading, not the broken "cata lfr ninja" version.
It was fixed. Rolling need on an item bound it to you. Even if it was a boe item. And despite what people here seem to believe, once incentive was taken away to be a ninja people went back to doing as often as they normally did which was fairly uncommon.
So for raiding it means you don't ticket gms for ml mistakes.
For groups it works like so.
You roll need on an item and win? You can't trade it.
How it worked in classic?
Your roll need on an item and win? You can't trade it.
The only real change here is the incentive to roll need on a boe blue or epic item is gone since you'll no longer be able to list it on the AH.
And this is perhaps me giving Blizzard some degree of credit. Because it's hard to believe anyone could be foolish enough to bring back a broken system we've already experienced once. I fully expect it will be the "fixed" version of loot trading, not the broken "cata lfr ninja" version.
11/06/2018 07:05 PMPosted by AidevesMinimial impact? Maybe not for you. For people like me? It is. And even if I got an Add-On for blacklisting as suggested above, do you know how many people are going to abuse this system in low-level PUGs? Blizzard is essentially saying, to their paying customers who are RETURNING to play their game (I stopped playing retail) that they are putting their needs before ours.
Sorry but, that's not very customer oriented, or community oriented. I would like to know I'm being considered. You want an even simpler point? This loot trade window was not available in vanilla. Soooo, yeah. End of story, it doesn't belong. Sharding is just a little help at the beginning, then gone. I could just AFK for two weeks, they remove sharding and then I play.
Loot trading? It will be there, no matter what. And it's terrible.
People like me? What are you intending by that? Because I currently play Retail I'm not part of the Classic community on the same level as you? I started playing about half-way through Vanilla and have longed for those days for years, just like you.
I've been excited every since they announced Classic, just like you.
But unlike you, I don't throw a tantrum at the slightest mention of change. I'm just happy we're finally getting what we've asked for all these years, even if we have to compromise here or there.
11/06/2018 07:14 PMPosted by XojaSo the way I see it, Blizz should step up to the plate. Classic deserves its own support team. Why not hire people to do that job? Or make it automated like the item restoration system with the necessary limitations?
They will have Customer Support for Classic.
11/06/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Meleecounter11/06/2018 07:14 PMPosted by XojaAt first when Ion mentioned loot trading I understood the part about CS tickets. But then I put a bit of thought into it and...
...
This is absolutely true.
Loot trading will have too much of an impact on the Classic community.
So the way I see it, Blizz should step up to the plate. Classic deserves its own support team. Why not hire people to do that job? Or make it automated like the item restoration system with the necessary limitations?
isn't that automated thing just a fancier loot trading?
Technically GM tickets in Vanilla were "fancier loot trading" if you think about it. Loot was distributed unfairly all the time due to GM errors. I've known people that admitted to getting MC/BWL/AQ40 loot when they didn't even attend the raid or even tier 3 quest items by making tickets and abusing the GMs.
Not really sure if an automated system would be feasible, they would have to make it properly track who was part of a lock out or a dungeon run and I'm not really sure how that would be done. They have the tech with the 7.3.5 client I would say but there may be limitations in the Vanilla data that they used to rebuild the client.
But with the way loot rolling worked in Vanilla there was no built in need before greed. Do we really want people rolling on things with the intent to give their friends the item when they win? Unless they change how loot rolling works, but then that's just further down the rabbit hole and people could still abuse the system with that.
What do you mean, no class restrictions on the Need button? Because it definitely had separate Need and Greed buttons + a confirmation window if you clicked Need.11/06/2018 07:30 PMPosted by XojaBut with the way loot rolling worked in Vanilla there was no built in need before greed.
Class restrictions would help mitigate loot trading abuse a little bit, but I honestly just don't see any need for a 2 hour loot trading window in dungeons. You have to be pretty dumb to accidentally click the Need button on something you don't need. That rare accident isn't worth the flood of abuse that the system would cause.
People like me? What are you intending by that? Because I currently play Retail I'm not part of the Classic community on the same level as you? I started playing about half-way through Vanilla and have longed for those days for years, just like you.
I've been excited every since they announced Classic, just like you.
But unlike you, I don't throw a tantrum at the slightest mention of change. I'm just happy we're finally getting what we've asked for all these years, even if we have to compromise here or there.
They will have Customer Support for Classic.
Look who got upset instantly. People like you: as in people who minimize the damage and affect that loot trading has on people who LIKE their PUG community. You said, it will have a minimal impact on gameplay. To ME, that is false. Don't get so triggered.
I, me, and other people find it very important and not so minimal. I'm not throwing a tantrum at the slightest change either. I have accepted minimal sharding in launch. So you are incorrect. But just because YOU are minimizing the nature of loot trading, doesn't do that for me or any of the other 100+ threads saying the same thing. If anything, you see more about this than sharding now.
So, before you say I'm having a tantrum and singling you out, read properly first please. I never said you didn't enjoy classic or the thought of it. But don't generalize everyone's opinion by saying it is "minimal" then say I'm throwing a tantrum. Absurd.
11/06/2018 07:51 PMPosted by AidevesLook who got upset instantly. People like you: as in people who minimize the damage and affect that loot trading has on people who LIKE their PUG community. You said, it will have a minimal impact on gameplay. To ME, that is false. Don't get so triggered.
I, me, and other people find it very important and not so minimal. I'm not throwing a tantrum at the slightest change either. I have accepted minimal sharding in launch. So you are incorrect. But just because YOU are minimizing the nature of loot trading, doesn't do that for me or any of the other 100+ threads saying the same thing. If anything, you see more about this than sharding now.
So, before you say I'm having a tantrum and singling you out, read properly first please. I never said you didn't enjoy classic or the thought of it. But don't generalize everyone's opinion by saying it is "minimal" then say I'm throwing a tantrum. Absurd.
There's a lot of folks dismissing anyone's opinion who dares to step foot into Retail, so you'll excuse me for not taking kindly to this 'people like you' title.
I've yet to see anyone bring forward actual evidence of how loot trading impact the community that wasn't based on wild speculations and improbable fictional scenarios. There is no actual data to use as evidence to your claims since we don't know the exact details yet on how they intend to implement loot trading. Until I am provided with actual data proving this will impact gameplay/community, I've no reason to believe conspiracy theories about every PuG being plagued with loot trading abuse.
Also, I'm not the one claiming it will have no impact on gameplay/community, the developers are. They said so during the Classic Panel to explain the reason behind this decision. If choose to trust the people with 10+ years of experience developing games (including good ol' Vanilla woW) over random folks on the internet. At least until proven otherwise. If this turns out to be a serious problem in the Alpha/Beta, I'll be joining your ranks and fighting back against Loot Trading.
Otherwise, I've no reason to cry wolf.
11/06/2018 07:37 PMPosted by KonwayWhat do you mean, no class restrictions on the Need button? Because it definitely had separate Need and Greed buttons + a confirmation window if you clicked Need.11/06/2018 07:30 PMPosted by XojaBut with the way loot rolling worked in Vanilla there was no built in need before greed.
Class restrictions would help mitigate loot trading abuse a little bit, but I honestly just don't see any need for a 2 hour loot trading window in dungeons. You have to be pretty dumb to accidentally click the Need button on something you don't need. That rare accident isn't worth the flood of abuse that the system would cause.
Maybe I wasn’t really clear enough, but they eventually made it so that you couldn’t roll need on something you can’t use in WoW no matter what the loot setting was. What I meant was that this system was not in Vanilla.
And yeah you are right, someone would have to be pretty dumb to hit that confirmation for something they don’t need... or simply be a Hunter, heh. Seriously though, remember the rolling habits of the average Hunter back then?
There are also predatory players out there. That’s why looting in WoW changed so much over the years. Loot trading does give players agency but it also enables negative and unfair behavior.