Classic+ - Horizontal progression is critical

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
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Heavy dose of opinion here.

In a hypothetical world where Classic+ is a thing that happens, a vertical progression system that takes the level cap further (ie, to 70) and/or adds a raid that takes place after Naxxramas progression would be a step in the wrong direction and a repetition of the route WoW took from Vanilla to Retail.

Consider the following points…

  • Naxxramas in Vanilla was an amazing raid… that almost nobody experienced. Given that it’s the pinnacle of progression and typically requires raid groups to traverse a gear progression from Dungeons to MC to BWL to AQ40 to Naxx, with ZG and AQ20 mixed in, this places Naxxramas at the end of a long journey for traditional gameplay. I think the statistic thrown around is that maybe 1% of players experienced it in OG Vanilla. While I’d expect that ratio to be higher in Classic Era, especially after 4 years of existence (versus the original two), I would imagine it would be overall low.
  • When TBC came out and the level cap increased to 70, this invalided all vanilla raiding content as a form of meaningful character progression. People still did those old raids for set collection and fun, but it was much more rare.

I think a more horizontal approach to progression should be considered for Classic+, one that leaves Naxxramas as the pinnacle of end-game raiding and character power. The level cap should remain at 60 and new end-game raids could, for example…

  • Drop rewards that fill in gaps in the current gear progression system. Items that embrace hybrid class itemization such as adding feral attack power, or adding bonuses for hybrid classes.
  • Allow for progression within that raid only, such as providing resistances to damage types found in the raid and at no additional item level budget cost. This makes that gear powerful both in the raid and the world, but not replaceable by higher power gear for that content specifically.

We’ve already seen the result of what happens to the previous expanions content when a new one is released. Classic+ could be an opportunity to try a new approach and I think it’s worth considering.

With Classic+ the world should grow, not be replaced.

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On your point about resistances, it would be fun to have a raid that uses holy damage and arcane damage (oh, I described scarlet crusade again). Could add in some fun new consumables too that increase nature/arcane/holy spell school damage. Smite priest burst dps could be insane with a ret paladin. Elemental shamans are already insane but moreso. And moonkins… exist still. (I love playing moonkins but they are the ret paladins of casters).

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I was speaking more to defensive resistance in order to give progression inside the dungeon. Imagine a 12 boss raid in a wing style such as Naxx. The first wing would be “normal” bosses. The second wing would do moderate, say, holy damage to your raid. The third and fourth wings would do significant holy damage to your raid. Gear from all wings would drop items that, on top of their standard ilvl budget for stats, would offer holy resistance.

Groups going in with MC/BWL gear would have to start in the first wing and gain some gear from those bosses to survive subsequent wings. Groups going in with AQ40/Naxx gear should be able to outheal/outdps the damage in the second wing but would be unable to do so in the third and fourth wings. They would have to progress as well with everybody who wants to clear the raid being geared in items drops by that dungeon.

Holy damage and full gear sets for each dungeon may have complications in practice. There are ways to mitigate those complications but this is mostly just an example to build the idea of what horizontal progression would mean.

With that said…

I agree! Having a fight or two where “meme spec” damage was required to progress would be really cool, and encourage exploration of those specs in a raid… at least for those fights. One of the things that’s pretty great about WoW Classic’s design is that while you specialize via talents, your other abilities are still there. Also, rise of the Arcane Mage? :smiley:

To further the design of a fight like that, it might be cool to have some high hp magic resist adds that would target those damaging the main boss would get aggro from. This might give others in the raid something to do, with warriors taunting and holding aggro to protect those damaging the main boss while the non-holy/arcane dps burn them down.

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It’s a must! It’s a #groundrule!

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All for it, as long as I can get a Felguard lol

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Yes, while in original Vanilla 1% of players experienced this raid. Since the launch of WOTLK almost every single person that reached end-game was able to experience this raid. The whole reason they added this raid to WOTLK was simply because so few experienced the original.

With that being said, so many people have now experienced this raid with Classic WoW.

A majority of people that want classic+ want NEW gameplay, such as zones, quests, dungeons, and raids, but for the overall feeling of the game’s major systems to be left untouched. (Level cap, class design, profession design, talent trees, etc)

I’ve said this once, and I will continue to say it again. Gear, did not ruin the world of warcraft retail experience. Level scaling, Item Scaling, Class Homogenization, Changing Talent trees, Being the world’s savior, daily chores, item power, NO CHOICE IS YOUR OWN DIRECTION, mythic dungeons, Random Dungeon Finder, Raid Finder, etc ruined the game.)

The raids of classic will eventually become obsolete as in previous expansions. I’ve said this once, and I’ll say it again. Classic+ content should be focused as an end-game for the end-game players. (Those that have already raided Naxx, and have the best gears) It should not be designed around fresh level 60’s using it to gear up. (Fresh 60’s already have everything they need to gear up. Such as running naxx).

The problem with expansions making older raids become obsolete was the level and power gap between levels. You went up 10 levels, and during those 10 levels gained an extreme amount of power just from your base stats. Greens were often way better than previous expansion gear. Purples were out of the older world’s, world!

With that being said, gear in classic+ zones needs to be better than what we have already. If not, there is literally no point of even doing classic+ content. People play this game to because you can feel the power increase as you spend time in your own character. Now, I’m not saying classic+ needs out of this world good gear. Think of TBC level 58-60 greens. It needs that, but with reduced stats. Another way to keep older raids from being abandoned is adding new difficulty settings to them, and have them drop classic+ gear.

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This is correct, but it’s important that we don’t lose sight of the reason why this happened. Naxx was the pinnacle of a progression path that took a long time and required you to gear 40+ people in 3 full raids to reach. A lot of players got naturally filtered along the way and the result was only a very small percentage of players being able to experience the content.

Today, Naxx has been out for much longer compared to the original Vanilla run, but the amount of players who have experienced Naxxramas in its 40-player raid format is extremely low compared to the overall player base. Adding one (or more) raids to this progression path only makes it less likely for players to be able to experience that content.

Instead of a linear progression path, I’m advocating for one that is branching and parallel. Consider if MC/BWL was the root and AQ40/Naxx was just one path. Or what if MC was the start, Naxx was the end, and BWL/AQ40 was one path while another sequence of raids could also get you there?

Character progression is the key component of WoW’s gameplay loop and I’m not proposing that be abandoned. Instead, I’m asserting that Classic+ needs to find another way to achieve this, one that makes new content something that players can actually access and one that also doesn’t invalidate all the content that came before.

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Did you know that there’s already a game mode that fits players who think like this perfectly? Who mostly enjoy raiding, gearing up, and focusing on themselves over all else?

It’s Wrath probably going into Cata, and the people I know who are still playing Wrath really enjoy that. Those who enjoy other aspects of the game have quit, and 95% of the players I know from 2019 have quit. To me, a constant focus on ever-moving end-game raiding is a treadmill and no longer fun. The constant focus on end game and people being all about themselves at the expense of any MMO community is also what Retail is about.

Everyone has their own idea of what Classic+ should be. Including you. That’s the biggest problem with it. What you want is already readily available though.

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I heavily disagree.

There are glaring points in the Classic leveling progression where there aren’t enough quests to continue, where you have to grind dungeons or mobs. Furthermore, the Horde definitely has fewer available quests than the Alliance.

Classic+ should be expanding on the leveling opportunities with new zones, as much as it expands on end-game content, if not moreso.

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Even if you assume good motivations I get how people do like this kind of progression curve. I mean it is fun… D3 is a ton of fun in early levels until you hit that wall at endgame and it changes.

But I agree that WotLK and Retail really do provide that experience. Classic is something different and it would be good to preserve that vibe, going in a different direciton than we did already.

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I really don’t see this formula a lasting success or working out well with the over all player base of the Classic Community as a whole of holding their interest for long. But hey idea’s are idea’s.

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Great post.

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Agreed horizontal progression is crucial.

Which means Blizz will increase the level cap, add seasons and replace % stat itemization with rating.

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Right. I’m not really hating on those who like the treadmill or the end game, but having three versions of WoW that cater to the same player base, at the expense of those who play for other things, doesn’t make any sense.

So yeah. I agree with your OP.

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I hope everyone realizes this but generally the end game for horizontal progression is fashion and QoL improvements which others don’t have which is not a part of classic wow atm.

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I’m trying to advocate for different avenues here that allow for meaningful gear progression without invalidating the rest of the game. Some options discussed here and in other posts…

  • Specific gear paths for content as a zone-specific replacement to other gear. For instance, gear that offers resitances or mitigations to zone mechanics that would otherwise be deadly.
  • Additional gear options with specific gear enhancements that can be applied to any gear to allow for zone specific progression. Gearing options that are comparable to existing ones but are offered as an alternative path to them but with things like enchantments (or gems) that provide mitigations to zone mechanics that would other wise be deadly.
  • Gear/itemization that allows for building set bonuses to enhance a particular playstyle without requiring specific gear pieces to be worn. What if you could build a t3 set bonus and apply it to MC gear, for instance?
  • Gear offering tactical itemization choices not currently available in the game. Right now there are a few items that are still desirable in spite of Naxx because they’re well itemized. What if this were embraced and new raids, in addition to the usual wash of items, gave things like healing plate or feral attack power?

I’m not saying these are the solutions outright (“ship it!!”), but I am saying that there’s potential here, and options that can be explored that go beyond what WoW has already tried.

Let’s consider fashion a bit more closely here. While I’m not entirely dismissive of it, what if you could aquire items from other dungeons or raids with a different visual on them but were otherwise the same item? A bit of visual distinctiveness isn’t always a bad thing.

We’ve already experienced the army of blue robe wearing healers, it might not necessarily be a bad thing if there were compelling alternatives at the same power level.

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Basically what all the other vertical progression mmos do. GW2 does it the best where it has been vertical progression for like the last 15 years. Basically the end game for that is getting legendary items (basically heirlooms that you can choose your stats) and awesome fashion things and it has worked out amazing for them.

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Well, people love fashion, there is no denying that. I wouldn’t mind seeing Transmogging as a thing in a Classic+. A gold sink without any gameplay advantages behind it.

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If this is genuinely your stance and opinion, then I offer you a perfect solution.

Retail is right there waiting for you if you only want end game content.

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*horizontal progression

:stuck_out_tongue:

Sorry to nit pick because we know what you mean but yeah GW2 does horizontal progression really well. New xpacs usually come with new stat combinations for gear which can shift the meta up or allow for certain types of playstyles to shine/perform better. Basically imagine if items were added to make boomie better without directly changing the spec by buffing it.

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