[Classic HC] Hardcore server rules discussion

There’s been a lot of discussion on reddit lately about what the rules for hardcore servers should look like. Now, in Aggrend’s announcement, it basically sounded like the team is planning on simply making it so that once you die, you can’t resurrect anymore and that’s it. So what do you think, should that be the end of it, or should there be additional restrictions for players?

In the rest of this thread I’ll give my personal opinion. I’ll preface the rest by saying I’ve made it up to level 48 in the hardcore challenge so far, with a few deaths along the way. :slight_smile: Certainly not as much experience as some, but I have at least put in a decent chunk of time!


Trading with other players/AH below level 60

A lot of the community seems to think that trading/AH should be allowed starting from level 1, and the common argument here is that “if people want to do a Solo Self Found (SSF) challenge they can still just do it, since players who trade and use the AH will not impact them.”

I think probably the most important factor to consider here is preserving the difficulty/prestige of completing the hardcore challenge, and especially a SSF HC challenge, which I think everyone would agree is harder. In a world where AH/trading is allowed, the first wave of levelers will have completed the challenge at its hardest point. However, a few months later when raiders and max level characters have farmed all of the best enchant formulas, these enchants will make their way into the hands of low level characters, and at that point, the achievement of anyone who leveled in the first wave is greatly diminished, because now leveling is significantly easier for everyone. Now, maybe Blizzard will implement some sort of achievement system, which I think would be awesome, and would mitigate this negative aspect of AH/trading being allowed. If there’s not a VERY obvious in-game distinction between a level 60 character who’s done a full SSF run and a level 60 who went full Azamous mode, then my motivation to do a full SSF run is greatly lowered, even though a SSF run sounds much more fun to me.

There have been suggestions of trading being allowed within a level range (within 5 levels is a number I’ve seen thrown around a lot). I think anyone thinking this is a good idea hugely underestimates the levels Classic players will go to to make their characters more powerful or simply make gold. I would bet money that we would see players develop a specialty service to deliver powerful enchanted items from high level characters to low level characters. They’ll have a level 55 character who takes from the level 60s, then a 50 who takes from the 55, and so on until the item is delivered to the target low level character. Now, if trading is to be allowed, a much better solution in my opinion would be to allow trading only with players of the same level as you. This ensures that items only ever go upward, while still allowing trading with a designated leveling partner.

Grouping with other players

I think allowing grouping is fine, as in my experience, no grouping means massive bottlenecks at the lower levels. On my way to 48, I skipped many quests at the lower levels because there were just too many people waiting for a named quest mob to respawn.

At the end of the day, lots of people want to play WoW with their friends, and I think they should be able to do that. Grouping with others also often results in positive bonds being developed even among strangers, which is part of what WoW Classic is all about! And especially with the higher stakes of the HC playstyle, there’s even more reasons for strangers to strategize with each other and actually think about the content they’re doing.

Reincarnate/Soulstone/Bubble + Hearth/Light of Elune + Hearth/Petri Flask + leave instance group/Unstuck

These above items are all not allowed in the traditional HC community ruleset, aside from petri + leave group. These are effectively “get out of jail free” cards. My issue with some of these items is that they seem a bit arbitrary. Rogues have vanish, and hunters have feign death for when things are going south. Keep in mind that FD does not have a chance to be resisted if casted far enough away (~40 yds) from a given enemy. Shouldn’t these also not be allowed then? What’s the reasoning for these restrictions? Hearthstone has an hour long cooldown, so if you want to have bubble + hearth available as a cooldown, you’ll have to only play the game when your hearthstone is not on cooldown. That’s a big price to pay for being more safe. At the end of the day, most classes can easily be safe if they just never play the game without their cooldowns up, so I don’t see why paladins in particular get the short end of the stick here. Furthermore, I don’t think bubble + hearth even works until level 50, since that’s when paladins get the 12s bubble.

Shaman reincarnate - I think there is a discussion to be had, although I ultimately lean in favor of not allowing it, at least in the traditional state. I think any time you die as a shaman with ankh allowed, you’re just gonna not click the button until you’ve asked your friends to come and clear the area of mobs. That sort of behavior just doesn’t really seem like it’s in the spirit of hardcore. On the other hand, it does feel bad to just take away a powerful and unique part of a shaman’s kit without really compensating them. Maybe there could be some sort of compromise, like making it so that it automatically resurrects you after 5 seconds of being dead?

Soulstone - I don’t think it should be allowed due to the fact that it can be casted on others. This would no doubt result in very degenerate gameplay pretty much everywhere but especially so in end-game content. Now, maybe it could be changed to only be castable on yourself, and just automatically resurrect you when you die as described above.

Flask of Petrification + leave group - This is basically a “get out of jail free” card for dungeons and some raid bosses and works for every class, though apparently petri flask doesn’t work for some raid boss mechanics. Even still, it’s very powerful and pretty much ensures that you always escape a dungeon if it’s not looking good. Now, it does take a lot of effort to farm petri flasks, and maybe it’s fine to have a bit more protection for players who made it to level 60 already. I don’t really have a strong opinion on this one, and I’d like to hear from some more experienced players who have had experience with petri flasking on current HC servers.

Unstuck feature - I think it shouldn’t be allowed, or if it is allowed then the team needs to change how it works. This offers an out to avoid fall damage deaths, which is a legitimate way of dying that should not be able to be cheesed. Just alt-f4 when you accidentally jump off the Great Lift and unstuck yourself to Org/SW. If you are truly stuck, then you can still beg a warlock to summon you or wait for your hearthstone CD.

World buffs

It’s absolutely wild to me that world buffs are allowed for low level characters in the HC ruleset but trading/AH is not allowed. World buffs have an obscenely powerful effect on low level characters, certainly more than any combination of tradeable gear would. As discussed above, I think preserving the difficulty/prestige of the challenge is very important, and therefore I think we should maintain a situation where nobody is questioning whether someone else completed the HC challenge by relying heavily on world buffs.

PvP

I think it’s pretty obvious that the honor/ranking system wouldn’t really work in hardcore.

Maybe PvP flagging should be disabled altogether to prevent griefing, but I’m not really sure. PvP deaths could be some of the most memorable moments in a hardcore PvE server. Additionally, you can most definitely avoid getting PvP flag griefed in a lot of situations by turning on “Interact on Left Click” in interface options. Maybe Blizzard could add a little tip to make this feature more well known for less experienced players entering HC realms, and keep flagging as it is.

Mob kiting/leashing

I hope the team is paying attention to how players are griefing each other in community HC servers currently by kiting mobs, and I hope they’ll make adjustments to the game to prevent some of these more common griefing methods.

Keep in mind that griefing on official servers will be massively different from griefing on current HC servers, since griefers will be risking their own lives as well!

Limiting characters to one run of each dungeon

One of the community rules is that you can only do each dungeon one time per character until max level. I’m honestly not really sure how to feel on this one. I think the difficulty/prestige factor is worth considering here, since if your squad of friends has a good routine for hours of dungeon spam, it could probably be pretty risk-free and also very good exp/hr. Now of course, players could just grind mobs all the way to level 60 without doing any quests or dungeons, however that is considered mind-numbingly boring by most players, which sort of keeps that method in check. With dungeons though, I think a lot of people wouldn’t mind blasting through them over and over with their friends. Overall I’m not really sure where I stand on this one, but I think I lean in favor of the community ruleset’s limit of one of each dungeon per character until max level.


That’s all I have for now. Curious what others have to say about HC server rules. I think it’s an interesting topic!

3 Likes

First of all, thanks for making a post about this Kruffz! I’ve wrote down my thoughts on each of your points, so I’ll just reuse your headers for each segment.

Trading with other players/AH below level 60
In terms of how SSF and regular hardcore should be distincted, I think the way to go will be to eventually have an Ironman selection at character creation, maybe with some choosable modifiers.
I’m aware that Blizzard is only doing regular hardcore this time around, but that’s definitely something that can be considered in the future, and it’s probably the best solution for all players.
Outside of that, I think even apart of the trading with level 1 players, people will always find a way to cheese their way to 60. I think it’s good enough for the first round of hardcore to just let it play out on the simple ruleset of death = “delete”, similarly to the “no changes” philosophy that we had when classic released in 2019. There will be time to iterate on that ruleset afterward, and like I mentioned maybe adding something like Ironman down the road would be pretty nice.

Grouping with other players
The only part I really dislike about the hardcore addons SSF is that you’re not allowed to group with other players. I think this game thrives on social interaction, and having people actively compete with each other for tags when they could have grouped, especially with long respawns, just creates a toxic environment. I’ve heard it referenced to as “single player wow” a few times and I really agree.

Reincarnate/Soulstone/Bubble + Hearth/Light of Elune + Hearth/Petri Flask + leave instance group/Unstuck
I think anything you mentioned that doesn’t result in death and revive (reincarnate, soulstone) should be fine, though unstuck also sounds like a tricky topic. Technically it would allow players to circumvent any fall damage death, as long as they react quick enough. I think this will be one of the things that are very borderline cheaty, but won’t be removed by Blizzard as it’s a vital part of the game (no unstuck = lots of support tickets and people getting stuck with no quick self-service unstuck).

World buffs
I do actually like the idea of world buffs, mainly because it will be a pretty rare sight and it will be high level players going out of their way to help the community. They will definitely not be as abundantly available as on regular servers, as to acquire them those people need to not have died. The easiest to obtain would probably be Warchief’s Blessing for horde, but outside of that I’m unsure how many people will go for raids. I think hardcore is all about the journey to 60, and I think the majority of people will stop there and not raid. I’m happy to be proven wrong there, though.

PvP
Yeah I definitely think the way to go will to straight up disable PvP flagging. There is no reason to allow someone to flag themselves as PvP, as it only allows them to grief the opposite faction.

Mob kiting/leashing
I’m a bit torn on this, I may or may not have incited chaos into Stormwind a few times with a dragon back in regular classic, but I can see how devastating that level of erm… tomfoolery… could be on a hardcore server. So yeah, I think putting a leash on Mr. Teremus might be a good idea this time around.
Regular mobs are also prone to be kited into other players aoe, but I don’t really see a way to change how this works without fundamentally changing how tagging and combat works. That doesn’t really sound feasible to me, the easiest solution I can think of is not getting any aggro from mobs that you hit, but are grey to you since someone else tagged them. Though this wouldn’t prevent people to just pull full hp mobs on their mount, you see what I mean with complex solution.

Limiting characters to one run of each dungeon
Again I think that is something that maybe should be incorporated into the Ironman mode that I’ve mentioned earlier, maybe as a modifier or as a base of the standard ruleset.

Trading with other players/AH below level 60
My personal experience as someone who has leveled many classic characters in the past has been that SSF has been an enjoyable way to mix things up. . Caring about professions – Do I level skinning before I level engineering? Or do I have to level fishing and get leather that way? – or caring about chests in the open world – or talking to group members in dungeons to roll on some of the white items in individual chests – is all pretty different from the normal experience. I personally have enjoyed SSF and I think it was a nice inclusion by the hardcore addon team.

Having said that… I think a hardcore economy and auction house is something we haven’t explored that much. I think it’s an interesting space to potentially get to where your higher-level toon’s farming time is actually worth something because there are so few high-level toons farming. And fewer restrictions is generally a better way to build a social mmo where you are trying to let as many people play their own way as possible. So while I personally think SSF is a more fun way to level, I think it’s selfish to expect others to agree with me.

And of course the biggest caveat is allowing trading opens the door to bots and goldsellers.

Faction Balance
I know the mantra for hardcore will be hands-off for logistical reasons and maybe this is a topic for SoM2 (sidenote, if you don’t give us a better name, this is the name you get) or, at best, for hardcore servers post-SoM2. But literally no one will play the game at level 60 as horde. There is no reason to beyond nostalgia or identity. You’re putting salvation and kings – both massive for raid execution – up against windfury… and I don’t know what to say if you think that is even close. No one will play horde at 60. We already see the evidence across two healthy hardcore servers with the only raid teams on the alliance. When you allow trading on top of that, that is not a recipe for a healthy end-game economy and frankly people will start to see it and just level as alliance for the better auction house.

I saw that someone suggested allowing trading only in certain level brackets rather than a level range. So basically, players in a level range of 55-59 can all trade with each other, 50-54 can all trade with each other and so on, and obviously level 60s can only trade with level 60s. This seems like a really good solution to me if the team is looking to restrict trading for lower level players.

Not the post I thought I’d be throwing my 2cents on first… but here we are, and we here go~

I’ve poked the Hardcore addon everyone is crazy over lately and it’s alright… and I’ve leveled through Hardcore and Ironman elsewhere… as a hunter and as a warrior so… I’m going to share my experience and thoughts.

Trading with other players
Allowing trading in a leveling bracket is ideal in my opinion. something like 5 levels above, 5 levels down with trade locked to levels 10 - 59 and level 60 only able to trade with level 60 (assuming this is purely a HC realm). it creates the potential for every item found being useful, if not to you then someone else.

  • Preventing trading below level 10 also keeps folks a bit more honest. Players won’t be able to create 2 characters, trade stuff, delete 1, create character, trade stuff, delete 1, ect… to get around the scarcity of coin early on. (that’s meant to be part of the challenge!)
  • Players who have reached level 60 will not be able to trade below their level to avoid exploiting the no auction house rule.(Really… what’s the point of doing this challenge if you’re just going to buy equipment off the auction house.)

Auction House Below Level 60
No. Absolutely not. this is just making the challenge easier for everyone. We all know crafting materials sell really well, we all get desperate for that piece of armor or a new weapon every so often. This is part of the challenge, part of the difficulty in doing this. by allowing the use of auction house you’re cheapening the experience. That said, at level 60, sure. Yeah. You’ve earned it. You braved all the horrors of Azeroth, felled mighty foes, and did not die once doing it. go buy and sell whatever you want champ.

Grouping with other players
The same trading leveling bracket for grouping would work, I think. This would allow people to work together while avoiding the potential of being carried. as Kruffzz put it, people want to play with their friends and should be allowed to do that.

Reincarnate/Soulstone/Bubble + Hearth/Light of Elune + Hearth/Petri Flask + leave instance group/Unstuck

  • Reincarnate: No. You died. Start over.
  • Soulstone: No. You died. Start over.
  • Bubble + Hearth: While I don’t like that paladins get an easy escape, they’ve not died, so they get to keep this one… (they are an easy class though, let’s not kid ourselves about that.)
  • Light of Elune + Hearth: That potion is a blessing for every warrior out there, and if you can get a hearth off in that time, more power to you.
  • Petri FLask + Leave Instance Group/Unstuck: This one is a little iffy for me. The Flask by itself is incredibly useful in group settings but not useful at all solo. I can understand leaving an instance to try and save yourself when the group crashes and burns as well as needing to use the unstuck button when being stuck, sucks. However, using these together just doesn’t seem fair at all. Something to the effect of, “Can’t preform that action while petrified” would be good, I think. Prevent the player from using either of these mechanics while the flask is active. Otherwise I just see this being abused.

World Buffs
Lets keep these. Having been that warrior, struggling away to not die in Westfall to trappers and their stupid nets and their running in fear towards other packs/mobs/whatever… world buffs are a blessing from the gods. Added bonus, everyone benefits from them. If someone is only going to play while they have the dragonslayer buff, well… that’s their decision, kinda lame (and really slow) but it is what it is.

PVP
Picture this: You’re a low level human paladin, bebopping around, doing your thing and you drop consecration. Suddenly you’re flagged for PVP and there is a rotten, jawless, level 60 undead, dressed to the nines, daggers dripping poison, staring you down. That’s a problem. something needs to be done to prevent players from griefing in HC this way. whether its just preventing AOE from PVE harming PVP or putting a level cap on who can PVP who… Personally? I like the first option. , if you’re silly enough to flag for PVP in some ridiculous manner and you get ganked? that’s on you. you’re playing HC, man. Play smarter.

(forgot to add this.) The other issue regarding being flagged is buffs. simplest way to put this is, “Look before you cast.” We all like looking after each other sure, but if someone is flagged and you buff them without realizing, now you’re flagged too. it’s fair, so… LOOK BEFORE YOU CAST!

Mob Kiting/Leashing
This one is a problem even outside of HC. I was playing a normal character last night, I go into a mine, killing kobolds, I got 2, and here comes another player, higher level than me, pulling the entire rest of the tunnel. Because i was in combat with 2 already, the rest decided i was now the target and my 2 became 9. Fortunately (for them) they didn’t message me to laugh or anything and it’s entirely possible it was an accident and they were just trying to get out, but that still really sucked. Ideally something to be done is keep mobs from aggroing on to players who’ve not tagged them while they’re chasing someone else, unless that someone else is part of your party anyway…

Limiting Characters to One Run of Each Dungeon
This one is just funny to me. You’re already in over your head, man. If you want to risk running with 4 other players in a dungeon, by all means do it. Do it as many times as you want. At some point that experience burns out and you get peanuts from it. additionally every time you run that place you’re just spinning that wheel of chance. All it takes is one goof-up and the whole party dies. So if you want to trust 4 other players with your 1 life, and the time you’ve put in to get to where you can run that dungeon, go for it.

Closing thoughts and Suggestions
(I think I covered everything I wanted to… I hope I did… I’ve been typing for over an hour at this point and we’re hitting that moment in time where the eyes start to glaze over.) I’d definitely make it as clear as possible to those taking on the HC challenge that death is death no matter the circumstance. From server lag (within reasonable standards) to PVP to PVE content. You die, You dead. No taksies-backsies.

Oh and maybe some rewards for hitting level 60, unique title to be used in classic and warth classic, maybe a mount of some kind, a pet maybe. Something to make the long, painful journey all worth it… also a leaderboard to “immortalize” those that make it, something for the website, ya know? It’s been a lot less community oriented lately, hasn’t it?