ah so it’s just a simple matter of quantifying how many vampiric embraces equals one windfury totem, which of course won’t vary from fight to fight
i agree with you. but this is a problem that occurs much more in low end groups, which isn’t what blizzard is (or should be) tuning around
that may be the case in pugs (especially in bad pugs) but it’s absolutely not the case in high end raiding or high keys
You are most likely correct. But I think therein lies another part of the problem, or at least today. And that’s how the encounter mechanics are designed and even moreso how they are scaled for difficulty.
I’m going to try to use UBRS in a very simplistic example for multiple reasons: 1) I’m just not “feeling” trying to put together too deep a discussion 2) I concede I’m not the most qualified candidate to do so (which is why I am enjoying having a discussion about this rather than a debate, as I’m intending on learning rather than pushing an agenda like so many do on these forums. I sincerely don’t have all the answers but I have my opinion which could be right, wrong, or 1/2 of each)
In UBRS of old, dps was indeed necessary (enrage timers and other similar mechanics are real). But I can recall no encounter where only DPS alone would win the event. But without non dps class abilities I can not think of a single encounter that could be overcome. UBRS absolutley required hunters, druids, mages to use CC’s, eating in to their dps showing on Recount (or whatever we were using back then, I’ve slept since then forgive me).
These days, largely the only thing that eats into DPS meter values are the puzzle type, jump through hoops, mechanics forcing people to run here, run there, dance, click this, etc.
Raid comp in general is not nearly as critical outside of having 2 tanks and 3 healers, as it was given the way encounter mechanics are today.
Does this make sense?
Just some comments:
Tanks & heals today are designed to withstand just about anything today by themselves compared to earlier wow due to active mitigation (big dmg reduction as long as you keep it up Vs passively hoping you didn’t get smacked) , low cds (2-5min not 30) better healing cds and a wide range of different healing tools, etc.
Higher dps means less healing required. If you can blow huge trash packs up fast enough you can squeeze a big pull in during an entire tank cd. Also, if your group is skilled enough and can avoid enough dmg; healers with higher dps and dmg prevention outclass healers with no dps and purely reactive healing.
And the fun part; a lot of the meta specs of 9.0 brought the best damage and the best utility; hero, brez, aoe stealth, slows, aoe stuns. You even had some specs that were the best at single target and almost best at aoe (or reversed) with the best utility. How does anything compete with that?
You’re defining utility as dps increases. It’s as I said. Encounters have become nothing more than DPS races with puzzle mechanics introduced to gate the DPS. As opposed to creating encounters that require utility spells and abilities other than DPS.
So now we focus purely on DPS and cannot get any class balancing for the mere fact that someone has to be on the bottom of the dps meters and that’s just not fair because of reasons and I should be on top because I want my class to be.
Is Hunter strong now?.
(not arguing, hope it doesn’t come across that I am)
9.0 mage had great single target, amazing aoe, int buff, cc, defensives, immunities.
Balance druid had amazing burst, uncapped aoe, brez, treants, aoe silence
Rogue has several immunities/cheat deaths, aoe stealth, great cc, great aoe, misdirects
Just going off those alone, they do the best dps (or near it) while also ticking every box for utility, raid buffs, immunities, cc, defensives.
They take less healing, can ignore more mechanics, help the tank the most, all while still out dpsing most others. You create encounters that require more non-dps utility? The best dps specs already had it! They’d still be brought.
That’s where the problem was, not just dps. There are times that a spec with higher overall dps might not be taken because something with near enough has more of the other stuff.
Edit: you also run into things like the following; feral brings roughly the same utilities as boomkin but it’s melee (negative) and their aoe wasn’t as great. So there’s pretty much no reason to bring a feral over a boomkin.
No no no, I don’t see it as arguing. And again I started off my comments by saying I don’t have answers or feel nearly qualified to come to any conclusions on my own.
I’m relying heavily on my old school raid experience to point out perceived differences in boss mechanics. For instance, remember when the debuff bar for old school raid bosses would fill up with utility debuffs from various classes, not just DoT’s?
Yeah, it was super annoying 
Bosses are mechanically challenging now, with some fights requiring extremely high levels of coordination. Fights with high movement, high incoming dmg, high soak dmg, painful dots adds that need bursting down asap.
Unfortunately, these are things that mages, hunters, boomkins, rogues often excel at. Mobility, defensives, immunities, cleanses, burst dmg. So when they get their turn at the top of the dps charts it takes a huge nerf to unseat them.
If enhance, feral, arms, fury was #1 they’d get taken, but the moment a fight requires immunity soaking, can’t have too many melee or they get even a slightly rough nerf it’s bye-bye
I found it engaging. Gave me more things to pay attention to, to coordinate with the other casters, and required more skill and timing rather than just spamming my burst damage.
Depends on your class. Lots of specs that aren’t allowed to use their class/spec flavour because it would use up valuable debuff slots.
Can’t use poisons, dots, niche dmg boosting buffs, only one Paladin gets to use certain judgements and some people have to keep up a buff at the detriment of their own dps so more people can press 1,1,1,1 forever.
I’m fine with this. That’s my point really. Not every class in my opinion needs to be a dps class. Re-introduce real utility to a class. Otherwise there’s really no reason to have so many different DPS classes and specs.
But also open up the bosses debuff slots. That was always a little bit annoying. I don’t mean allow for 20 Moonfire debuffs, 20 curses, etc. Bit don’t force the raid to trivialize one classes set of utility debuffs for anothers.
Because then you just have the minimum amount of that class you can get away with, and no more.
If you look at classic Vs retail you can see what people will do with that.
Invite the minimum amount of each utility class that we need to check a box then fill with warrior/mage/rogue (classic) or warlock/hunter (tbc)
At least with retail, with various specs bouncing all around, you can safely bring every class to the highest content. The only time you get one spec stacked to crazy lengths is when one is so far ahead that those who play it are already getting prepared to cry when it gets hammered
Fire mage is uncapped and they are getting a buff……
I get what you’re saying. I just think there could somehow be a better system where not every class needs to revolve around pure DPS output and more utility based team work from a wider variety of specs that can influence the game outside of raw dps.
And that buff will still leave them near the bottom.
you are literally the only person defending these buffs.
I like how Arcane Mage’s can go an entire expansion being completely non-viable and Blizzard does nothing but if Fire Mage isn’t the best for 2 whole weeks it gets a buff.
How on EARTH are you able to justify a Shadow Priest nerf? Do you even test these changes? It doesn’t seem like it. Seriously, Blizzard, you guys have been doing nothing but unbalancing with these last hotfixes, I love the game but then again, in FFXIV these things just don’t happen, you end up making classes useless: not talking about the Spriest now (which by the way was balanced and didn’t need an 8% nerf to DP) but take the bottom 5 classes on wclogs. You REALLY should look into improving the classes that are doing the worst instead of just outright nerfing everybody else without playtesting a thing
I honestly miss when we had to think about some things. Granted the debuff allotment for mobs was annoying, I think the idea of keeping certain things active for others was a great system.
As a paladin I miss having Greater Blessings to hand out to the raid, every spec having Aura Mastery to provide support, certain specs providing regen to others, and having special judgements to aid the raid like Judgment of light n wisdom.
You forgot Beast Cleave.