Class design: Should they feel good baseline? Or with introduced systems?

During a recent interview between Preach and Morgan Day, one of the big things that I heard which worried me was about class design.

Specifically Morgan stated (to paraphrase), lets see how classes feel when they have all their tools before looking at sweeping changes.

Personally I believe the classes/specs should feel complete as the base version and then anything else like legendaries or expansion systems should be built on top of that foundation.
As the saying goes, a building is only as strong as it’s foundations.

Personally I really hope Blizzard rethinks their ideals on this matter as it is looking to leave some specs high and dry, hoping that they get the roght legendaries and pick the right covenant abilties to make the feel ‘OK’

Is anyone opposed to that ideal? Or do people agree with Blizzard’s design that t should only matter tht classes feel right at max level with all of their tools?

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I’m with you, op

Having external power make the feel complete isnt a bad thing inherently IMO.

It’s just that blizz has as if recent times have made the ways in obtain such powers.really poorly. Whether it be legion artifacts or azerite traits and essences.

But its defintly safer to try and make the baseline class feel good. That’s like the foundation cant really go wrong there.

I think few people would disagree that each class and spec should be as perfectly balanced as possible and fun to play.

We have always improved our characters along the way by things we make and get, and that is the fun of an MMO. The problem with things like Covenants is that they aren’t things we make or get, they are systems put in place which enforce a choice. And in order to even those choices out so that one is not seen as “required” they have to then tack on other things to stop the system from swaying madly out of balance.

I would much rather see us return to a game where we work towards empowering our characters from a core that is intrinsically sound.

The current game play is extremely unrewarding in terms of class identity.

Currently 45% of my damage is direct damage from abilities that have nothing to do with my class. Of the remaining 55% it’s hard to say how much of that is due to procs and boosts to my spec abilities from sources other than my spec, but I’m guessing it’s more than 5%.

So over half of my damage has nothing to do with feral.

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Absolutely should feel good baseline. I get that they have to introduce new things to keep things fresh, but I’m so tired of having my class completely changed every expansion.

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No more rental powers! Add new talents or ability ranks instead.

Classes should feel full and complete with just the spellbook. Talents should allow you to modify, enhance, replace, or augment your baseline abilities to suit your playstyle or the content you are playing. Borrowed power systems should fill the same basic niche as talents.

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Borrowed power is the only way to go so that we get new abilities . They cannot just keep adding things to classes permanently . If they did that you would need ability prunes ever two expansions and get a wave of complaints because they took away someones favourite ability .

There is no need whatsoever to balance a leveling toon . balance needs to be done when you have your full kit of abilities. There will always be a gap between specs and classes , you will never get them equal .

They should feel good baseline.

Blizzard needs to work through the classes and find what the majority of players like as the base playstyle and rotation of each spec. This should then not be changed barring when a lot of feedback is received as the spec becoming stale.

Instead to keep some variety each expansion should introduce some thematic things for the classes. This is already somewhat the case however there is a major issue where the classes don’t feel complete without these systems rather than the systems being something extra.

That doesn’t make sense though, because you still get button bloat, either way.

I absolutely I agree, but the issue I see is that classes shouldn’t inherently not work and then require those borrowed powers. Those borrowed powers in my opinion should only bolster and improve the existing class.

They shouldn’t be required to complete it.

We need to find a new baseline of “this is what a fire mage is” and then keep that as the base and have the expansion specific systems improve upon that each new expansion, the class shouldn’t feel torn apart and lifeless each new expansion release.

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I think the aim should be for “both”
back in the day with set bonuses on armor, you didn’t NEED the set bonus for your class to feel “good” but the set bonuses could certainly make your class feel “better” (to the point where it wasn’t uncommon for people to mix and match bonuses from multiple raid tiers)

however set bonuses are rather minor changes, in order to have the sort of substantial differences they want I can “understand” by blizz is going the route that they are, after all its much easier to balance around the “end result” rather than needing to make sure things are balanced around the end result AND the comparatively short period of time till players actually get there.

Classes should not rely on end game systems to feel complete. A new/leveling player’s mantra shouldn’t be, “just hold on until max level. It’ll get better.”

That design didn’t work for the leveling system and it doesn’t work for the classes either.

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exactly. Blizzard needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel every expansion with classes and find what works and what people like. Once they do leave the base class/spec like that.

It should work and feel great to play in that state with nothing extra. Then each expansion should introduce a few thematic abilities or modifiers that allow for some variety each expansion.

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I think this is a really good way of putting it, any systems on top should really be icing on the cake rather than the flour that makes the foundation.

They don’t need to balance 50-60 in SL from a numbers standpoint. They do need to make 50-60 feel good from a gameplay standpoint. Then can then keep that basic foundation for the life of the game, and fine tune and tweak it to make improvements over time, rather than reinventing the wheel with massive reworks to a wide array of specs, like we have had every expansion since MoP.

When the borrowed power systems were just set bonuses, trinkets, maybe the odd weapon proc effect, the classes HAD to stand on their own, because you never knew what gear you were going to get. Now that the borrowed power systems are post-level-cap progression, it’s nice that there is continued non-gear progression throughout the expansion, but you spend the entire time from prepatch to a couple weeks past the level cap feeling like half a class.

I’m reminded of a quote regarding arms warriors back in the WOD beta, from Preach appropriately enough: “A talent system (or whatever extra toys you like) is balanced on top of a foundation and if that foundation is made of naught but spunk, then it’s not going to survive very long.” I feel that it applies here. Every class and spec requires a strong, functional and enjoyable core which these extra mechanics and rental powers should merely enhance. If your character only functions once you have certain legendaries, or soulbinds, or a specific covenant power, then anyone who doesn’t have those specific things is playing a broken character.

Many of the specs in the shadowlands alpha actually appear to accomplish this goal, especially with some of the things gained from 50-60, and the covenant class abilities themselves don’t seem to be the sort of thing you would or could build your play around. This pleases Gaga. But there are others, such as fire mage, which are still just hollowed out from the loss of so many Legion effects, and this is a problem.

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Agreed, i particular a lot of the melee classes appear to be fine or at least ok baseline which is good.

But it’s just worrying to hear that those who do have significant issues like fire mage and spriest notably who are just expected to cross their fingers and hope for the best.
Hopefully they instead change their mind instead of forcing people to pick the right covenant and soulbinds to get their class to work.

From what I’ve seen, fire mages only really need a few basic changes to be in a good place mechanically: Flame on baseline, phoenix flames baseline, new talents in their place, and passive ignite spread. Shadow priest… is a disaster I’m not remotely qualified to un-screw. God help them.