Class design is why people are leaving

Community General Discussion
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I only played a rogue for 2 years during vanilla, and a druid/mage during BC. Other classes only felt foreign and exciting because it was too much of a time investment to level/gear/attune a bunch of alts. All specs had access to the same spells, so they felt very similar; specs currently feel quite a bit different from one another, but only because they divvied up the old spells between 3 specs which is limiting (and then adding ‘new’ spells like [Dispatch]vs[Eviscerate] - why??). If they start adding page(s) of actual new spells and (PvP)talents to each spec, then I think the current system would be superior to the old one. Unfortunately though, I get the feeling they’ll just continue pruning everything.

I can’t speak for boomkin or ele, but feral, enh, sub rogue, and sin rogue would all feel noticeably different. The rotations are very simple though and there’s not much freedom for one to create their own unique rotations, so that’s likely the problem. I remember getting talent points refunded on my vanilla rogue after a patch, and being excited to test out [ghostly strike] in the subt tree because respeccing was expensive af. More choice in spells like that would be very nice and vary up the rotations.

It feels a lot more fast-paced than it used to, which is nice, but doesn’t make up for the loss of 8 pages of spells, a fun talent tree, and mana going from a carefully managed resource to something that’s mostly ignored. I like how most specs feel to play atm, moreso than any other expansion, just they feel very similar.

It could definitely contribute, I dislike raiding and M+ pugs so I just avoid them. Pre-MoP I’d start pugs and tank for hours. If the lack of server-community and unpleasant environment makes people avoid content, they’ll be far more likely to leave.

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honestly I agree that it might not be the 100% cause but its def a major reason why so many people are quitting. I myself am starting to get to the point of possibly quitting myself due to class design

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Those were the days, RPG was alive and well in all aspects of the game. I was completely turned off and felt Blizz had really lost class identity when they gave them a melee spec, melee weapons and an option to increase damage by not having a pet

I remember thinking, there was so much depth to this game and the world was so big that I would never master it all. Having two max lvl characters at that time with maxed professions was a feat of strength in itself. And I felt personally connected to them both.

Now, i have 20 or so toons lvl 110-120 which most of them I have no connection to at all. They could be deleted for all I care and the only thing I would be concerned with is getting the stuff out of thier inventories first

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Between the pruning and completely dead rotations I agree.

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This will always be true regardless of how well a class or all classes are designed. There is always going to be a portion of the overall population that doesn’t have any allegiance or love for a certain play style and instead prefer to wave their dps in people’s faces. If someone figures out a way to squeeze just a few more points out of a class, these FOTM folks will drop their current class and look for that small increase because that is who they are as players.

I will say this, and I’ve said it time and time again… if you think you have a better understanding of game design (and with it character and class design), then get a job in gaming and make a better game. Complaining in the forums about how you know what is right and where x game designer went wrong, is just screaming into the abyss… regardless of what the community managers here say, the DEVS do NOT come into the forums for game design tips… (another avenue is to become a game tester, whose understanding of game design is infinitely more nuanced than anything anyone in these forums has ever stated).

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I would say there have been many game design changes over the years because of player feedback.

I mean look at all the catchup mechanics that have been added into the game because that ‘one guy’ that rejoined Ion’s guild and they had to help him run older raid content to gear up. Now you can gear up solo, within a day. Another example of ‘taking it too far’

It’s my understanding feedback does get back to Devs. Whether they do anything with that is another story. I dont think taking the approach if you dont like it, go be a game designer is right.

I know Ion read a post of mine in prep for the Q&A. If enough people complain about the same things either changes will be made or players will quit

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All the more reason for people who have a better grasp of game design to get into positions where their opinions matter… Imagine having to sift through thousands of “I don’t like it therefore it must be bad” posts to get to the few nuggets that have reasonable and creative critique. I hate to break it to you, but “reason” is not synonymous with the blizzard forums.

By me telling the couch design team to get a job in gaming, i am not giving anyone the short shrift… I really mean it. Having worked at a gaming company, I can tell you that innovation gets attention in a game company… if you figure out a way to do something better (or cheaper), they’ll put you in positions of power. You have NO power in the forums… but within the system, you can change how things are done, not only for a single game, but for ALL games because developers are vampires sucking up what works in other successful executions to build better games.

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I agree with the general idea of your post, but I disagree with this. MoP’s class design was persistently bad from a bigger picture. The reasons lay in that every role had the same tools to deal with all but the most niche situations, rendering every class very much the same outside of looks.

It wasn’t something you’d notice if you only played a few classes, but if you looked at each one of each role, you’d see they all mirrored each other in a most uncanny way. Casters, for instance, all had a instant-cast spell for knocking down totems, and a way to freely cast while moving. MoP was a time of extreme homogenization, in a way that it only felt good if you only played a few characters. Your choice in what you played really didn’t matter…until it came to numbers and utility.

You see, when every class has the same core tools, there will be a few that rise above the rest through some means, and therefor become better than everyone else. Warriors with banners, destro locks with copious amounts of raid utility(as well as the best ST and AoE, being tankier than plate melee, and the additional value of ranged in an expansion full of anti-melee mechanics for the whole expansion), blood DK’s with SR+vengeance stacking making them simultaneously the best tanks and melee DPS, paladins with many hands and the new devo aura for all specs.

Aside from these few notable specs(or classes in the case of paladin), no one else brought anything unique or interesting to the table. It’s very similar to the problems we have now, and have had since MoP.

The whole point of picking a class in an RPG isn’t just to pick another color, but to pick a select set of tools that only you have and no one else does, using them as appropriate. When one reduces the metrics of a class to nothing more than throughput, survivability, and mobility(via the most desirable-to-clear content), then you effectively eliminate classes entirely, rendering the player’s choice in what they picked both without benefit, and inconsequential. Both of which, are necessary.

For class design to become truly unique and meaningful, what first must change is the outside world. The endgame must become far less static in its “meta”, breaking the mold of current compositions/rosters/what have you. Only then will there give rise for classes to also change, giving them useful abilities(and weaknesses against) for the game that actually matter.

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Oh, I tried. I guess I’m not qualified, even with a college degree (and not in lesbian dance theory), IT certifications, basic programming experience and likely years of played time on Blizzard games and games in general (I’m still got CD copies of WC1 and Diablo 1 in my CD wallet.) Yet they’ll hire GC as a Marine Biologist (I honestly think so he could design Vashj’ir) and Ion (They need his manipulative talents to sell this stuff to people.)

Enough people talking on the forums DOES make changes here. Remember when they removed tree form for resto druids and GC said it was due to people complaining on the forums about how they couldn’t see their gear when they raided? It was a couple people posting on alts so it looked like a lot more people than it was. Then the game was ACTUALLY CHANGED because of that.

I miss the old way where they added dungeons as a catch up mechanic. MgT was one of the first, but the most memorable to me was the Frozen Halls, complete with a chance drop weapon with a cool quest line to do. I remember doing those for every appearance and for emblems/badges (that dates me, doesn’t it?)

Something no WoW player ever said “You know what this game needs? More melee.”

Honestly, to mix it up, my VE hunter (I hit 120 with it 2 days ago) does SV and it’s pretty fun. But I miss ranged SV a lot. No amount of wildfire bombs will every replace my black arrow, explosive shot or lock and load. It was my favorite spec for several expansions.

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It’s quite possible I would like it but I’m stubborn that way I guess, I won’t give it a chance because I cant see a hunter any other way but ranged with a pet. I would have felt better about it and possibly tried it if they would have added it as a 4th spec rather than butchering the three and deleting one to cobble it together

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I can concede to your point that a game designer would have more influence over a game they were designing vs. Somone on the forums. An employee concerned about saving the company money will always have more power (to their eventual downfall) than a player in this regard. Some maybe benchmark from other companies but I dont they get right down into game design. Maybe the best microtransaction system to employ

What the game industry is missing is the fact the player is also highly qualified to talk about game design and in some areas more qualified than the devs. Its the players that are day in and day out playing in the game, so if there are thousands of people complaining about, well I dont know maybe, Class Design and creating posts like “Class design is why people are leaving” should be a reason to make some class design changes. I would encourage more people to voice their opinion here vs. The opposite

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Not arguing that players who are knee deep in the game know what they like and what works for them… but that doesn’t necessarily mean they know whats best for the game. A dev needs to take into consideration how the class fits within the overall feel of the game itself… it isn’t as simple as just beefing up one spell here or skill there… it has to be measured against so many things many players never consider as being remotely connected. An easy example is to think about how many skills or spells have been removed from the game (things PVE players loved) because how it negatively impacted PVP. Game design decisions are sort of like the proverbial butterfly in Japan causing hurricanes in Iowa.

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And they came to the conclusion that the only ranged spec with a combination of physical and magic damage (classic SV hunter) would be better as a melee in a game that’s already melee heavy. It makes you wonder if they even play the game. I know at some point, most devs don’t. They spent so much time at work talking about it that they don’t feel like actually playing.

We could say the same thing about the devs too.

It was funny when pvp changes were made because devs in the past pvp’d as that particular spec. Hunter disengage where you took damage before disengaging and your backward jump was cut short was left broken for months since none of the devs pvp’d as a hunter. Meanwhile, mage blink was broken somehow and was hotfixed in less than a day since GC played a mage.

Things like Sentry Totem were of limited utility and allowed the shaman to see a place remotely (like the upper ramp in the horde WSG base.) They removed it because newer players would likely be unable to find a use for it (I’ll admit, it was a very niche spell,) but that was part of its appeal. Eyes of the Beast was used to kill flagged players dueling outside of Org (prowling cats.) Annoying, sure, but not game breaking.

I think they still should.

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people said wod was bad but it had god class design.at leat people are waking up to how bad bfa is amd saying its much worse then wod.

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This can’t be stressed enough. No matter how lackluster actual content is, if class design is strong people will play. Classes are the vehicle through which we experience every aspect of the game, when classes are bad everything else becomes bad. Right now, content is lackluster and most classes feel like trash. It’s a very bad combination.

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Pretty much. Great class design increases replayability which is very important in an MMO where the goal is to have players subbed as long as possible.

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This. I feel like people look at Legion class design with rose-tinted glasses because Artifacts filled in the majority of the holes when that shouldn’t have been the case in the first place. Without artifact weapons Legion’s class design would have been just as abysmal as BFA’s class design and that really speaks to the state of the game’s design as a whole.

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Legion class design was revamped dramatically from WoD so people had time to relearn their classes and work on their unique artifacts.

The class design wasn’t great but it was new so it took a bit longer to get stale.

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As much as I hate to think it and as much as blizz denies it, class design is heading to passives, with 2-3 skill buttons to push. How else do you get this game on a console and eventually on your cell phone?

/puts arm around you, “you do have a cell phone dont you?”

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It’s also not necessarily how many abilities we have, or don’t, but how engaging the ones we do have are.

My DH is dreadfully boring because of how simple and shallow all of her abilities are.

Really needs some added depth and secondary effects on things.