So what was the reason for removing class buffs again? Why remove some like Blessing of Kings/Mark of the Wild and keep others like Fortitude/AI? I feel like it could only be a good thing to give other classes besides dh/mage/monk/priest and warrior permanent buffs like mark of the wild for druid, attack power buffs for dk/hunter, Kings for Paladin, Int buff for Warlock and not sure what for Rogue and Shaman.
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Bring the player, not the class.
With all respect, this still does not answer my question.
It does, actually.
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It doesn’t, actually, given some classes now have incomparable benefits simply for being present.
Back in… WoD, I think it was, most classes had a buff that another class could also bring to a raid.
Now? If you don’t bring a DH every magic-user in your group deals a flat -5% damage of their potential. Same for Monk, but with Physical damage.
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Not arguing any points. The guy asked why most classes lost their class buffs. That’s one of the main reasons given.
Don’t get in my face if you don’t like the design answer.
Welcome to today’s new Druid Forums. Where you ask a question and get gibberish or opaque answers, which is then defended with violent attacks. Man, I wish you guys would just chill.
The reason given was that Druids didn’t get MotW because they thought it would give TOO much incentive to bring one. As in, we already have enough incentives to be brought, so we didn’t need more. Does this reason make sense? No. The dev disconnect is real.
Blizzard has since backtracked and said that MAYBE they made an error here and now their viewpoint is that EVERY class/spec should have a reason to be brought that forces group leaders to make difficult choices on perhaps leaving a class/spec out. I doubt we’ll see anything implemented on this until the next expac though as it will require them to do something they have failed to do so far in BfA. Balance the classes/specs.
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Thanks for this, Nuisense. And you’re right, that makes no sense to me. At work right now so I can’t give a detailed response but I went through a look at class buffs and stuff earlier and I don’t feel a MOTW-esque buff would make Druid’s or any other class “a must bring.” The one thing I can think of that we have which is nice, is B-rez. And this is nice but lots of other classes have really cool things they can do also. Quick example DK has a brez, Warlock has a b-rez, and Shaman has ankh which doesn’t even share a cd with brez.
Honestly that’s a bit of a naive thought process because there will always be groups that look at buffs as as min/max factor and will go to lengths to make sure that the group has the maximum potential to beat content. For example, my monk’s raid on Sundays almost always rounds out the group getting a priest, mage, and demon hunter for their buffs since we run a warrior/monk tank combo.
Personally, I dislike the idea that a buff is provided by a single class. It’s typically not a problem for a guild that can bring 20+ people to a raid night but it makes it far more challenging for smaller groups. While the group finder is there to help with those situations, the candidates recruited are not always helpful.
I will say for me, I miss the days of “bring the player, not the class”.
It is nice, but as you pointed out its also not unique or special; Death Knights and Warlocks have it too and Shaman have their self-rez.
I will say I honestly hate how Rebirth was designed this expansion to use whatever resource is specific to our form. When you’re a tank and you loose someone in your M+ dungeon group and you’re the only one who can combat rez, it can be really hindering to burn rage to get the person up. It’s a bit easier in a raid environment, but never-the-less still a very intrusive change that really should not have happened in the first place.
I’d argue that there really isn’t anything unique that a druid brings regardless of the specialization we are. Some would have you believe roar might be unique but its just a fancier warlock gate, same principle applies. Some might think that vortex is unique, but its ultimately a poor mans version of ring of peace provided by monks. In fact, RoP is superior all around to vortex.
Not really understanding the naivete of my post. It seems you are saying the same thing I am in that groups are always looking to bring classes based on what buffs they bring. I also agree with “bring the player, not the class” but still think it would be nice to get some kind of static buff where we literally don’t have to do anything and it provides value for the whole dungeon/raid like Battle Shout or Arcane Intellect, for example.
Agree with your thoughts on Rebirth.
You said:
That’s naive because some players are always going to min/max.
We already do it with the priest, mage, monk, demon hunter, monk, and warrior buffs as-is. Should druid provide some equivalent buff, groups will make it mandatory to have at least one druid in the composition, even if the druid spec being played is less than desired.
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But you still bring the class and not the player.
Demon hunter is the most obvious
If you want to get technical, at a high level they bring both. At a low level, typically gear+nerfs to bosses combined makes it irrelevant which you bring.
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Agreed with all other points but this one. RoP and vortex are opposites of each other. One functions as a grip, the other functions as a knock back. You can utilize them to achieve similar results, but they function completely opposite to each other.
As to which is superior depends upon what the goal is with the utility. I’d say that vortex is categorically better than RoP for the adds on Opulence. RoP at best can be used to knock a few adds back towards the center on one side of the circle. Vortex grips all adds back to the center of the circle.
Also, vortex can be incredibly useful when paired with typhoon to act as a pseudo-mass grip to optimize your groups cleave damage and can also act as an interrupt without mass spread of the mobs.
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For sure, was kind of a tongue in cheek comment
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Fair point. I was definitely thinking blindly focusing solely comparing RoP and UV with reaping adds with trying to minimize the melee attack debuff rather than the much broader stroke of the individual spell’s uses.
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The only way that would become mandatory is if Bliz balances there content around having all of these buffs in the Raid, which they shouldn’t. Otherwise they are deliberately making some classes more valuable than others. For having a motto like “Bring the player, not the class” and then only giving a select few classes buffs like this, that seems counter-intuitive to me.
The way a few of the older buffs were is they were shared, and that would work to making you rely less on some classes; So like when DK’s had the attack power buff. Now you don’t have to bring a warrior for that Battle Shout. Or when Warlocks had the Intellect buff. Stuff like that.
They do. They also stated that “bring the player, not the class” is one of the largest mis-represented statement the player base has latched onto. They were referring to BC raiding at the time… where not only raid comp, but party comp within the raid mattered. A time where the classes were massively different and really required the team to craft the best raid possible. That is in no way the same as going: Bring 1 DH, 1 Monk, 1 Mage, 1 Warrior, and 1 Priest. Like not even close.
And yes… they do craft the fights expecting us to have all of the buffs. Cause if they didn’t, they’d be massively under tuned.
Their theory as to why they didn’t give druids MOTW back was that they felt druids already gave plenty of utility and didn’t think they needed another reason to be brought to groups.
As for having overlapping buffs, that’s pretty much the MoP class design that they did away with. The point is that you bring the other classes for their own specific utilities. No other healer brings a healing CD that equalizes the raids health with a spirit link totem? Should that healing CD be shared amongst the other healers? I don’t think so.
Also, if you don’t have a priest, warrior, or mage, they provided us with consumables via inscription with scrolls to give us 7% of their buff. Something that’s more than enough for Norm, Heroic, and the vast majority of Mythic raid content. My only gripe is that those scrolls should be 1 hour long and last through death. They’re entirely too expensive to be a dependable source of the buffs. That’s just my opinion though.
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Was not aware of these battle-scrolls. Had seen my raid using them from time to time but hadn’t even bothered to find out what they were lol. This does make it a bit better.
OP, please be introduced to our local troll; Drez.