Chris Kaleiki's Comments on Community

I found the video that Chris Kaleiki posted about why he left Blizzard very insightful. He pretty clearly still cares about Blizzard and WoW even though he is moving on in his career.

I think a lot of people agree that community is a big part of the game, and that there are many that feel that something is off about it now compared to in the past. So, two things he said about that struck me as summing up the strange thing about community in an MMO (starting at around the 7 minute mark of the video):

1.) The decline of the guild is an issue, where you needed the “interdependence” to be “successful.” Although it can feel restrictive, it creates community. He feels that the need for interdependence stood at odds with wanting to play solo or needing other players to achieve goals.

2.) The story: The main characters (i.e. NPCs) and their dramas “soak up a lot of air in the game,” as opposed to the players being the source of the drama. He then gives a quite literal example of this, stating how his guild in classic gets a lot of heat for preventing other players from resetting the Onyxia buff. He states it “really pisses off a lot of players.” So, he isn’t necessarily meaning story based drama, but real life drama between players, and that the two feel rather mutually exclusive.

There’s a ton to unpack there, but this is really the meat of the issue in the MMO. It really shows how there are two, very different ways of approaching community in the game world. It kind of boils down to means vs. ends and how that determines what you deem “success.”

On the one hand, in his first statement, community/interdependence is the means to gain success, and that success is inferred to be in game ends. Downing a boss, winning a BG, winning an arena match, etc. all have the common feature of being an in game goal that a community can work towards together. In PvP, yes, there are winners and losers, but the wins and losses are in the game and are in game functions.

On the other hand, in his second statement, community/interdependence is used to essentially gain out of game ends and reach out of game goals. The focus is using community as a vehicle to gain a reaction from another player, which is really an out of game end. The focus is on how the other players feel (i.e. “pissing them off”) rather than an in game goal.

The thing is, both of those are accomplished or made more “fun” in an MMO setting because of community, but the ends are a lot of times entirely opposed to one another. It is probably best summed up by saying that there is opposition between players that use community primarily as a means to advance character related ends and those that use community as a means to advance player related ends.

We’re seeing this play out this very moment. Isn’t that largely the issue with the zombie invasion? One side largely sees it as disruptive to their in game ends, the other side sees it as an in game means to reach their personal ends.

Sorry, I know that was long. I honestly just find that interplay fascinating. The more I think about it (without attaching negative words to either playstyle), it feels like a lot of things boil down to whether you ostensibly want to play with the fourth wall broken, or enjoy playing while it’s contained within four walls.

/wall of text

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Looks like whoever is leading the direction of the game does not know what hes doing.

COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH

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I agree with almost everything he said, but also I think adding more story is a huge win compared to classic

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I enjoy having a larger, better narrative as well. However, Chris is sort of implying that drama through narrative eats away at drama created by players.

There some truth to that kind of assertion of mutual exclusivity. I play WoW and enjoy getting immersed in the narrative as escapism, but player created drama can stand in contrast to that escapism. Yet both use community as a vehicle :man_shrugging:t2:

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no wonder shadelands was delayed so far back

When the topic of community comes up, I often wonder how much involvement people have in their own real-life communities these days, and how that plays into online communities.

For example, someone who goes to the local park with kids, participates in events, and learns how to behave in public, do they behave better in online communities. Or the inverse, where someone is anti-social, likes being destructive, or get into altercations in their neighborhood, are they more likely to be disruptive online as well?

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I honestly disagree with him on almost everything. I like it that I can enjoy WoW by myself, and I would probably not play WoW if I was forced to rely on Groups and Guilds.

I also think doing actual storytelling instead of asking us to kill 10 boars because they are out of balance or something is better. That in no way gets in the way of the player creating his own story on top of the WoW narrative. Back in the beginning WoW could afford to not have an actual narrative because it was riding on the WC3 narrative success. But that can only take you so far. Warcraft needed to start coming up with it’s own storytelling otherwise people would just stop being attached to the setting.

Chris Kaleiki decided to quit the WoW team because he realized that the team’s general vision of what WoW should be like no longer matched his own vision. But his vision is just his opinion. We should respect it as an opinion, but we should keep in mind that it’s just an opinion.

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100% true. I do think he does a relatively decent job of just presenting it as his opinion, though.

That being said, I agree with you. I personally fall in the camp of desiring community as a means to reach mutual, in game ends. I don’t necessarily feel like guilds should be necessary, but I do like the teamwork of raiding, filling a role, and helping the team win. I personally don’t understand using the community function to personally impact other players. They are both “community” means, but I feel like one is more prone to have negative impacts than the other.

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Op,humans in general ,have a very diverse prospective mentality on so many variables in the games and in life that it is hard for a company to justify getting everything right at the get go. So is this person right or wrong? I would say neither because it’s his view and not everyone’s.

Might not be a right or wrong issue, but more just mutual exclusivity in game design/directions. I don’t think you can satisfy both camps in the context I was describing. WoW has shifted a lot over the years from one direction to another, so that can obviously frustrate those that liked it the way it was before.

To be fair, I can’t think of many other games in the history of video games that have had to fluidly change with the times. It’s easy to pick on shifts or feeling of lack of direction. That being said, going back and see where technology (and society) was 16 years ago when WoW started is kind of humorous.

yeah I began playing when community was emphasized in WOW, I actually have grown to prefer solo play, I am just lucky the game has also headed in that direction.

I like how LF raid, dungeon, whatever allows me to casually join when I want but doesn’t force me to keep up virtual relationships with people I really don’t know or want to know. I had a great guild experience once, the rest were not good, and the reality is, most of what you think you know about people you meet online is fake. If you have a guild filled with RL friends, then you cannot really compare because it was not created organically in the WOW universe.

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The gaming industry has changed over the years and mainly because of the consumer, so wow is just following it’s lead .To change it back people would have to bring the part they like to light ,other than that ,there is nothing that can be done.

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maybe he was fired because of shadowpriest fiasco.

still that void form thing makes me to vomit.

he left he cant lie and say he got fired

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/a-glimpse-into-why-blizzard-is-failing/726326

This thread is Already posted here.

For me, the main allure of MMOs are the stories I can tell years down the line, or even years after the servers have shut down.

The more prescribed our gameplay is, the more my goals are dictated to me and are identical to everyone else’s, the fewer unique stories I can tell.

No one want to hear about the umpteenth time I did my world quests, or when I unlocked that conduit, or when I was in a cutscene with Sylvanas for a brief second.

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As someone who played classic through today, while I think he’s not wrong regarding communities, I also think that the classic type of environment is just not compatible with the times.

Matchmaking is never, ever going away. As the player base shrinks, it will become even more important.

Classic type community is just a thing of the past, and those who are playing classic are just relying on nostalgia.

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A certain other MMO has been in the midst of a very engaging server-wide event, wherein players craft items for a singular goal - rebuilding an area of a beloved city. There’s still space for this type of content. I always wonder why WoW gave up on this stuff after AQ40.

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this is such an important point. I think a lot of people enjoy the feeling a community can bring them without realizing that they first must get involved in some form or another to build said community. If you stop participating in community then it dissapears, complaining about the lack thereof after the fact is silly if you don’t do anything to actually build it.

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Yeah, I play that game too. And it has no end game to speak of. I will play for the first two weeks of every patch then log out until the next.

Keep in mind that game also is match-making city, and with Trusts, is almost a single player game.