Mobility is more of a pvp issue
2 Likes
Holy mobility is trash and Prot mobility is slightly below average at best.
My issues are:
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Judgement of Justice should be split into PoJ vs LAotL and Judgement of Justice and moved into the class tree.
- This is a Spec vs Class problem.
- Holy Paladins are supposably meant to be a “Melee based Healer” but are the only healers without access to a snare or root.
- Paladins are one of the only melee classes that doesn’t have a baseline movement speed buff.
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Jurisdiction reduces the skill ceiling of Paladins a bit too much.
- Some boss mechanics can be completely ignored, and the defensive abilities of Paladins have improved to a level where you should either be able to take a hit or two, or should have the skill to move out of threating attacks.
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Some range is fun, but so is having mobility options.
- Reducing the range on Paladin abilities has more potential to introduce a fun and unique Paladin gap closer.
- To be excited and optimistic that something really cool can be designed and introduced for Paladins…
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While maybe least important to most, it still is a video game and Jurisdiction doesn’t do much for the fantasy of Paladins when you’re swinging a weapon 20 yards away from your target.
- Some range is fine, but too much range is just goofy looking.
- Spells are visually projected because of the distance, currently there can be 10+ yards between your character’s weapon swing and the FV hammer animation. It’s just awkward gameplay.
So it’s a combination of things:
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All Paladins should have access to snares and passive movement speed buffs
- Why? Cause literally EVERY class does.
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Jurisdiction should be removed because it lowers the skill cap of Paladins and looks a bit silly at times, though the 12 yard range should stay.
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All Paladins should have access to a new, fun and unique Paladin gap closer.
- Why? Cause literally EVERY class does.
This pairs with what Blizzard said about Druids and the fact that melee are attacking from further than what appears they should be able to.
While yes, that is mostly about auto attack range, there’s no reason why that doesn’t (couldn’t) also include the range Jurisdiction provides.
Bring all melee’s attack range more in-line with one another, but at the same time bring All Paladin’s mobility in-line with one another.
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Ret is my favorite melee because I don’t have to hug my targets to hit them. If they take that away, I expect some kind of compensation.
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you gotta specify if this is pvp or pve complaints cause i honestly couldnt care less for pvp
mostly cause the class doesnt need a baseline speed increase. at all. 2 ogcd horses and unbound freedom is enough, plus holy has echoing blessing and double charges of freedom.
i agree, i 100% support the removal of some of our overloaded range. keep in mind ret before the rework was already partially range with fv, boj, how, and judgement. jurisdiction and auto attack range is just to much
again i really dont think paladin needs any more range options, i know i sound like a broken record but double horse and freedom speed boost is legit enough. you dont need to charge into battle or jump into the middle of a trash pack. honestly ive seen enoguh warriors and vdhs getting killed doing that, its not worth the headache.
also again, its okay for a spec not to be giga strong at everything. ret paladins only weakness rn is “knockbacks” and those arnt lethal at all now. mythic raz with current ret mobility pack is a joke compared to it being a killer pre rework
oburacy is a passive speed boost, and consecrated ground is a snare. every spec has to make a choice to grab a snare with talent points. ret just doesnt cause its not needed in pve.
shammy doesnt have a gap closer, mm bm hunter doesnt have a gap closure, havoc doesnt have a gap closer (kinda), prot paladin doesnt have a gap closer, priests in general dont have a gap closure, dk has a gap closure but will never use it (no dps dk is going to grip a mob in pve away from the tank. unless they have a death wish), the rest have gap closures but at t he cost of talent points. again rety paladin shouldnt excell at everything, especially when it already excels at 90% of important things
ultimately yes, they should remove rets ridic range and probably scale its defensive power a bit more by nerfing sanct plates, they should also introduce more of a skill ceiling by nerfing generators and buffing spenders to make hopo matter more. this is literally the bareminimum. we shouldnt be the bm of melee in terms of difficulty, a person shouldnt be able to purple-orange parse in raid after wasting 30+ hopo
1 Like
Enhance has Feral Lunge and all shaman have access to Gust of Wind, tho I’ll admit Feral Lunge could feel better to press and the Shaman Class tree needs a bit of a touch up.
They have Disengage, and their “sprint” is Cheetah, but they are also a class that is struggling with mobility, mainly in PvP. Also, things like Trailblazer, Posthaste and Master’s Call exist to give them extra mobility when it comes to passives, snares and roots.
bruh…
So… you agree Prot could use a gap gloser? 
I mean to be honest, what am I asking for here…
- Jurisdiction to be removed
- This sucks I’m not denying this, but it’s for the better of the Spec.
- Justification and Judgement of Justice swapping places in the Class and Ret Trees
- Ret sees little to no change, while Prot and Holy gain massive QoL benefits
- Wings of Liberty (whatever) on a choice node with Cavalier with a 1-1.5 min cooldown
- If you enjoy Divine Steed, nothing changes
- If you want a new gap closer, but at the cost of a slightly higher cooldown, than that’s your choice
Whether it’s PvE or PvP, what’s the downside?
1 Like
if we’re gonna say stuff like “disengage and cheeta is a gap closer” then steed is rets gap closure. if you use fel rush as a gap closer in pve then your doing it wrong
I continue to remain confused why you believe that ANY of this is a problem. What they have characters doing in cutscenes is based on the writer/director’s decision as to what looks good for the scene. Its the same reason why a hollywood movie is never exactly the same as the book it was based on. Book writers (and video game developers) generally aren’t also movie directors.
You must be terribly disappointed by every single book-to-movie adaptation ever produced, then. This sounds like a “you” problem.
2 Likes
It’s not just in cutscenes bruh. They do them in quests and actual in-game combat. turalyon himself does it during a quest in argus when you engage in combat with a demon. There had also in the past been data-mined skills that was being tested as a paladin gap closer, with one allowing you place a sword marker on the ground to charge to said sword being one of them.
I dunno why should we be swinging a finisher in thin air 20 yards away from our target with the damage profile called melee? If you cannot see this as a problem, then maybe your one of those that wants paladins to be a ranged dps and not be paladins anymore.
Its pretty irritating to fight Rets on my wizard alts in pvp getting blasted by their full damage potential from 20yds away no matter how much work I put into kiting them.
If theres any argument for shortening their range and improving mobility, its that.
Then don’t use the range option. Simple.
Nobody is stopping you from getting next to your target if that’s what you desire. Why try to ruin it for the rest of us? If the rest of us enjoy the range option, let us enjoy it. You do you, and we’ll do us; everyone is happy.
No one is forcing you to use the range option. I honestly don’t see what the problem is here.
1 Like
Yeah, but those are second gen Paladins. The first ones were all clerics from Northshire and the Lordaeron knights were literally just 4 people. Even the guy who started the whole Paladin thing is the Priest Order hall leader.
But i’ll concede that is far in the past and not representative of current Paladins. Especially not the non-human paladins like Draenei Vindicators who are warriors first and priests not at all, Zandalari Prelates who were the warriors of Rezan or Tauren Sunwalkers who are actually just sun druids.
I suspect Unrelenting Charger is supposed to be exactly that. A Paladin themed gap closer. It is not a gap closer in the traditional sense, but at 130% speed you will still be going at “sprint” speed even when slowed by a snare. If it stacks with Crusader Aura, which i suspect it won’t, then you effectively can’t slow a Paladin for the first 3 sec of Divine Steed.
Unrelenting Charger reaches about 66% the speed of Monk’s Roll, but lasts for 3 sec instead of ~0.5 sec. 70% if UC stacks with Crusader Aura, but that’s kind of a moot point since no one is going to use Crusader Aura in PvP… or PvE.
Point being, Unrelenting Charger gives Ret/Prot an effective gap closer. You don’t reach your target quite as fast as Charge or whatever. But you’ll get in range to attack a fraction of a second later. Even if Crusader’s Reprieve and Jurisdiction goes the way of Seraphim next expansion.
Herald is also a thing, but i suspect it won’t see much use in PvP because if you dispell Dawnlight the whole tree falls apart.
Blizzard was pretty clear that the choice was never between extra range or Wings of Liberty. It was between improving our existing mobility or Wings of Liberty.
If Wings of Liberty ever becomes a real thing it will be a choice node with Divine Steed and not Cavalier. Because no one would ever pick Cavalier unless WoL has a ~2m cooldown. 1 extra charge is not equivalent to having a seperate ability.
Look dude, i usually really like your ideas, the custom talent trees, etc, but we are rapidly approaching having the best mobility of all classes if we got these things.
- 15-30% passive movement speed - Pursuit of Justice
- 100-130% sprint - Divine Steed.
- Instant gap closer - Wings of Liberty
- “Get out of jail card” - Blessing of Freedom
- Mini sprint - Unbound Freedom
- Trailblazer stacks with Pathfinder, Posthaste and Aspect of the Cheetah, so i assume UF would stack with PoJ giving Ret a second sprint on a 25 sec cooldown.
- Self dispell - Judgment of the Pure
- This frequently gets rid of snares and roots.
All while simultaneously having an effective combat range of 12yds. Not to mention Blessing of Freedom and Divine Steed having lower cooldown and being more effective than equivalent abilities.
How many classes/specs can match that, if any? Outlaw, Havoc? Maybe Druids? I haven’t played druids in like 8 years. I don’t know if they still have good mobility.
Have they said this is actually happening? I mean, the class tree is a complete mess but i haven’t heard Blizzard is planing to do anything about it. Unlike warriors, who Blizzard said were going to get a class tree rework.
Well, of course it’s not to that degree without other balance changes.
PoJ could be a 5% passive, it just would be more iconic to the class than “Obduracy.”
Or Unbound Freedom’s movement speed could drop to 5-15%, or even Steed’s speed if it really had too.
But to start at the basics, from what I said before;
- Swapping Justification and Judgement of Justice
What is the repercussions of doing that? The 10% damage to Judgement would stay, the snare and movement speed would stay. All that we would see is a QoL improvement to Holy and Prot.
Is Holy and Prot going to dominate the game because they have a snare tied to Judgement? Maybe Paladins get better in 2v2 Arena, but outside of that, I doubt it.
It’s taking these little steps for the class.
And I wanna emphasize that the Class struggles with mobility across the game, some more changes should happen to Ret in order for the class to raise up to a more fun level.
I mean, not to sound like a broken record, but they all do.
Warrior:
- 5% passive movement speed - Fast Foot Work
- Mini Sprint - Heroic Leap + Bounding Stride
- Instant Gap closer - Charge x2, Intervene
- “Get out of jail card” - Blade Storm, Avatar
Death Knight:
- Passive movement speed - Death’s Advance’s Passive
- Mini Sprint - Death’s Advance Active
- Instant Gap Closer - Death Grip x2, Abomb Limb
- “Get out of Jail card” - Wraith Walk
Not to mention the effects and benefits of things like Death Charger in TWW, CC, snares, roots, etc…
While this is more on the PvP side of things, we don’t have the roots and the snares as other classes, so it’s a bit trickier to compare.
- Warriors have Pricing Howl AoE snare, and root if you take the PvP Talent.
- Death Knights have their double Chains of Ice talent
- Ferals can mass root
- Hunters have Master’s Call, Tar Trap, and Steel Trap
Considering the success of the Druid and Monk Class tree revamp, I would assume so. But idk.
So this is considering some changes to the class tree would (should) happen in TWW.
These aren’t game sweeping changes;
- Remove Obduracy and replace it with PoJ (can be 5% to start or adjusted based on spec) vs LAotL (taken from Judgement of Justice)
- So worse case scenario is Paladins gain 3% passive movement speed
- Swap Justification and Judgement of Justice in the Class and Ret Tree
- You don’t lose the 10% judgement damage, while the Class gains better access to a snare
- Jurisdiction removed to increase the skill cap for Ret and reduce the survivability a bit in PvE.
So again, worse case scenario from all the changes above, Ret loses the range on Jurisdiction and has the potential to gain 3% passive movement speed.
All while Holy and Prot gain movement speed and access to a snare.
Then after these changes are made we open the discussion for an 'instant gap closer." And the reason why it’s tied to Cavalier is so Paladins can’t double up on steed and whatever else introduced.
Paladin:
- Passive movement speed - PoJ (5%) vs LAotL (10%)
- Mini Sprint - Divine Steed
- Instant Gap Closer - Wings of Liberty
- “Get out of Jail card” - Freedom
All the other crap like Cleanse, Unbound, etc… has to take into consideration all the strengths of snares, roots, and to an extent, CC, we lack compared to other classes.
Example Tree adjustment:
- Obduracy removed.
- Holy Aegis removed.
- PoJ vs LAotL added in Holy Aegis’ position in the class tree.
- Sanctified Plates adjusted IF need to account for AoE DR and Armor lost from Obduracy and Holy Aegis. (though I doubt it)
- Justification and Judgment of Justice swap locations in the Class and Ret Tree.
- Judgement of Justice no longer increases speed when casting Judgment.
- Jurisdiction no longer provides increase range on BoJ and FV.
2 Likes
As long as Blizzard continues being unable to properly design endgame encounters (raid, m+(i can’t talk about PVP)) for melee characters without extended range, then they SHOULD not remove any. Inconsistent hitboxes are all over the place, and couple that with weird boss/mob designs and poor vision from weird camera angles, and it’s a nightmare.
Those of you who RP as a melee range can just opt not to talent into extended range, don’t wreck the spec/class for the rest of us.
3 Likes
My take exactly.
2 Likes
extended ranges are bandages for poor dungeon design btw, its unhealthy to give every melee extended autos. also for a spec that does everything, it should have some sort of apparent weakness then “st build vs aoe build”.
Ideally they would fix the dungeon design, but I don’t think that’s likely at all - they keep repeating making closed corridors, colour matching ground effects with dungeon aesthethics, having no apparent standard mob hitboxes etc.
My opinion is that with current raid, and especially dungeon design, extended range is a necessary solution for developers valuing aesthethics over gameplay, which just leads to frustration
2 Likes
Depends on the spec, you won’t ever catch a frost mage/lock for long enough, but vs an ele or spriest it’s so easy.
We have been asking for a gap closer for a long long time and a leap ability would fit perfectly since there are npcs that do it. How is it that we can not as high lords but the other paladins can.
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I know ESO standradiced melee range not long ago…used to be a talent unique to 1 class, now they just made that extra melee range the new standrad.
Regarding druid melee range. I read in a post that they removing the talent and adding xtra melee range to catform.
Just give me back:
- Long arm of the law;
- Persuit of justice;
- Speed of light;
- Emancipate.
Give me that and you can remove the range of all melee skills and even kill the stupid pony too.
1 Like