Change or Remove Surge of Power

Classes Shaman
1

I’m generally enjoying the patch, but Surge of Power is an extremely poorly designed talent that should not have gone live. Literally, High Voltage was better designed. The talent offers absolutely no meaningful choices, not even for high skill cap players and it has to do with how completely convoluted its decision tree is.

Let’s go through the decision tree on this talent:
Flame Shock: For this to ever be useful you need to start a fight at 60 maelstrom and have exactly 2 targets only. There is a niche use (that also still requires exactly 2 targets) where you can refresh the 2nd target, but only if they are within the pandemic window. In way over 99% of cases, this decision will result in a large DPS loss. It shouldn’t even be in the decision tree. What would make this choice more interesting is if it spread Flame Shock to all targets. It wouldn’t even be broken because the extra Lava Surges would not be used due to Lava Burst being weaker than Chain Lightning on 3+ targets.

Frost Shock: No PvE use, obviously a terrible choice in all situations.

Lava Burst: Requires perfect information while being tied to both a resource and skill that have unique RNG. Your maelstrom generation fluctuates based on Overload and your Lava Surge procs are natural RNG. For this to even be a DPS gain you know to perfectly know the following: #1: The exact duration of your boss fight/pull timing in M+ to know if you’ll even get a usable extra Elemental out of it with optimal use. #2: When to start banking Maelstrom in anticipation of Lava Burst coming off of CD. If Lava burst is already off CD and you delay it 1 GCD in anticipation of having the Maelstrom for it and you get a Lava Surge proc you’ve lost DPS.

This screwed up decision tree actually works against you in the opposite direction in the lightning bolt section. If you are avoiding this decision due to knowing you won’t get an extra elemental so are prioritizing Lightning Bolt and you delay a Lava Surge proc or an off-CD Lava Burst to get rid of your SoP with LB and munch a Lava Surge, you’ve lost DPS. If you accidentally queue a Lava Surge to follow ES and don’t get an extra elemental use, you’ve lost DPS.

The really important thing you need to understand about the Lava Burst decision tree is that bad decisions aren’t just minor DPS penalties. They reduce the DPS contribution of Surge of Power to literally 0. I really need to emphasize this point: mismanagement of Lava Burst SoPs makes this talent give zero DPS contributions.

Lightning Bolt: There is no decision tree here. You just use it. The RNG nature of how many additional overloads you get make this just High Voltage without Mastery smoothing the RNG. Given the current design, this should be the ONLY benefit SoP gives so you can reliably align it with Master of the Elements and Stormbringer.

I know some people are enjoying the talent because it’s new, but step outside of your “anything but BFA launch” and look at this talent objectively. It might be the worst talent in the game currently. There are only bad decisions and DPS losses from SoP and those bad decisions often come from imperfect information due to RNG. This is some bottom barrel talent design that should not have made it past PTR testing.

2 Likes
2

sorry I disagree with you. I like it. We lost Earthgrab totem and needed a root and at least this bandaids that loss. I PvP mostly (99% of the time), so I like lightning section and frost section of the talent.

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3

If your argument is to disregard the fact that a DPS talent in our most important DPS talent row has no meaningful DPS choices because it provides you with a 0 DPS gain root, then you should be advocating for a PvP talent. Not straddle everyone with a truly terribly designed choice as a viable option for DPS. Effectively you disagree with me because you wanted a utility talent. If the talent was removed and the snare on frost shock replaced Ancestral Guidance (which no one uses), the net result would be exactly the same and you would actually gain DPS from having a viable DPS talent in your DPS row.

2 Likes
4

blizzard just needs to remove the shaman class from the game…lol.

5

Your argument is predicated on that the row is a DPS row. It appears to me to actually be a Utility row that can add DPS.

PE for example adds defensive and stuns with Earth Elemental and in PvP can be very useful.

IF adds more damage on the go without losing maelstrom generation. Maelstrom generation with movement being the Utility here besides mobile DPS.

Your argument would be sound if you accept that the row is a DPS row, but I reject that premise and find it not sound, therefore finding your entire argument not valid either for the previously stated examples.

6

Sorry dude, you’re not just wrong. You’re fractally wrong. You’re wrong on every premise leading to your wrong conclusion. Marginal utility does not make the clear DPS row of talents no longer a DPS row of talents. The primary benefit of PE is the buff to Fire/Storm Elemental. The primary benefit of Icefury is to increase mobile DPS (a premise you actually used to justify it as utility for some reason). Three out of four of the benefits of SoP are DPS related.

Aside from that, that row of talents provide higher DPS gains than all other rows of talents except for the level 100 talents. PE actually exceeds level 100 when you include the synergy of Storm Elemental. So the top DPS row of talents is actually a “utility row that can add DPS.” That’s absurd, no one buys that garbage.

EDIT I just had to reiterate how much I’m shaking my head. Primal Earth Elemental offers a 4 second stun on a 5 minute cooldown so PE is actually a utility talent? How much lead paint did you eat today?

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7

It seems your point of view is that is doesn’t give dps therefore it should not exist… correct?

Flame shock proc… needs to be different, I don’t see it being used as is. Perhaps the next cast of flame shock will apply the shock to all targets nearby. Alternatively, remove flame shock and add chain lightning instead with a creative effect.

Frost shock. A great option for pvp. Just because you are maining pve content , doesn’t mean talents should be changed because you deem it so. Call the thunder is more for pvp… we going to remove that one too? It does no harm being there from a pve standpoint. If the other 3 choices where fine, and frost shock roots we have ample to choose from.

Lava burst - Ah yes… your arguement that it provides 0 dps. Is true yet false. In a raid, if you expected to fight for… 4 minutes. You would get 2 elementals from the fight. One on pull and the other 2.5 minutes in. Now, if you could reduce the cd by a small margin to get a third elemental out, it will be worth it. If you can’t then it will be a waste. M+ is where I expect this to be used more often, as you can get more elementals out in trash pulls before bosses. I would need to do some testing myself to confirm, but it is possible.

Lightning bolt. - Well… pretty simple stuff. Even without Master of the elements… additional lightning bolts helps get to the next earth shock faster, without relying on the rng of high voltage. Yes, High voltage was an rng talent.

Couple surge of power with aftershocks, and you can do some serious work.

I for one love this new talent, it gives purpose to our malestrom system. To build then dump over and over, without any thought or variance, was a bad move on blizzards part. Having to judge the cost of malestorm to not cap in legion, was fun… engaging to a degree.

If you do not like it. Okay that is cool, but to ride off part of surge because it doesn’t apply to pve content is just silly.

8

There are really just 2 things I’d want to change with Surge of Power.

  1. I preferred the previous flame shock version, of giving an extra charge. I could at least see this having value in council type fights where the bosses aren’t going to be stacked, which seems to typically be the case.

Automatically spreading to just 1 target nearby doesnt seem that helpful. If it was at least 3 or 4, I could accept that.

  1. I would have liked some sorta earthquake interaction option.

That being said, I prefer the current SoP over HV.

9

M+ is exactly where this is very unlikely to be used.

Firstly, your highest dps skill and one which you used most often is Chain Lightning and Earthquake.

Secondly, not taking PE makes you lose a great chunk of burst aoe as your SE does not deal aoe without the active skill.

Last of all, since we are no longer taking Echoes of the Element for the 2nd charge of LvB, it also becomes much harder to line it up (in the unlikely scenario it is desirable to cast LvB in multi-adds situation). Perhaps maybe dumping SE altogether, and taking Magma totem.

10

If it doesn’t give DPS in a talent row built specifically to improve DPS it should be changed, removed, or moved. I don’t see how this is controversial.

Call the thunder is undertuned, but offers a measurable, passive increase to DPS. There’s nothing in the talent that makes it specific to PvP.

Someone else already pointed out SoP is worst in M+ because it performs the worst out of all options in the tier by a wide margin on cleave/AoE. I literally addressed the information aspect of the Lava Burst decision tree, did you just ignore it or what?

Surge of Power is an RNG talent too. 1-3 extra overloads.

So… Exposed Elements, but with more RNG and the potential to waste the benefit and even more chances to munch surges. This method of use is literally Exposed Elements, but worse in every way.

Actually it DOES apply to PvE content, just in a completely negative, movement penalizing way. Here’s exactly how. MOTHER starts her wind tunnel. You have 90 maelstrom, no lava surge. You earth shock and now what? Hold DPS for 4.5 seconds or blow your SoP on Frost Shock? Which DPS loss do you prefer? Just think of how many situations SoP has now reduced Shaman mobility because you can waste it on Frost Shock.

11

Then take PE. Honestly, its not a DPS Row.

Pre 8.1 if you had IF you are required to move, you case IF, gain 15 Maelstrom, cast 4 Frost shocks, how much maelstrom do you have? Still 15 cant cast an Earth Shock. Post 8.1, same scenario you 56 maelstrom. take Call of thunder you can cast a Earth Shock, take TM, you can cast an Earth Shock. Take After Shock, get lucky with 1 LvB proc, you can cast an Earth Shock. Its the maelstrom addition in the IF talent that makes it worth it.

Have you heard of the pet ability Hardened Skin? Probably not, but its a 40% damage reduction which is why most PvPers took PE. Yeah you could take Storm Elemental and get more DPS out of it too sure, but most liked the extra defensive that otherwise doesnt exist.

All 3 talents have DPS in them, yes. But all 3 have Utility baked into them as well. Which seems more likely? That its a utility row or a pure DPS row (as you claim). You are just wrong in assuming its a DPS row. It is not.

Also Ad Hominem attacks dont make you right in your arguments. Nice try though. In case you dont know what ad hominem means i have provided a definition below, considering the logical fallacies you throw in your posts it is quite possible you dont know what ad hominem means.

ad hominem

[adjective]

ad ho·​mi·​nem | (ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-ˌnem,

-nəm\

1.marked by or being an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

  1. appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
12

I didn’t say your argument was stupid because you eat lead paint. I said your argument was stupid because the absurd assertion that a low duration defensive and 4 second stun on a 5 minute cooldown makes the row a utility tier despite it being the highest DPS talent row is ridiculous.

Ironically, that makes your response a red herring fallacy. Honestly, I’m not really interested in responding to you anymore. Your arguments are silly and vacuous. Moreover, they aren’t compelling to anyone so responding to you is just flooding this thread with inane rhetoric.

2 Likes
13

I also stated PvPers took it for the defensive. And most take SoP now because its a viable and better option (in my opinion) regardless of DPS.

Also I point out that its a Utility row to disprove your premise of it being a DPS row, then I show how each talent provides such utility in order to be classified as a Utility row.

Its not a red herring fallacy. It most definitely isnt a red herring fallacy because it disproves your entire premise that its a DPS row which without accepting that premise as true, crumbles your entire argument.

14

So… you call his arguement stupid, then say that he has been eating lead paint, But apparently… his comments are not “worth” your time and they are inane. If Irony was made of strawberries we would all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now.

As for Surge being rng, It is. Yes. However it is less rng than high voltage. If you couldn’t see that… well im sorry your highness, perhaps you should read all of an ability, rather than what you deem “worthy”

You are not here for arguements sake. This is just your opinion. You don’t care about any counter arguements at all, and are full prepared to throw insults at anyone who is willing to engage in discussion with you.

Meadamemnon was correct. The row is not just for dps. It may give us the most dps, But the row is about a hybrid of both utility and damage. It is not a “dps row” Or is it a “utility row”.

How utterly pathetic of you to resort to petty insults rather than actually trying to discuss your point. Should of added a disclaimer to your post that you will attack all people who disagree with you, would have made this easier.

1 Like
15

Sometimes I need to read posts like yours to remind me of how much cancer is in these forums. It’s just… seriously the dude was arguing a 5 minute CD that links to a 10 second defensive and a 4 second stun makes the tier primarily a utility tier. All to justify 25% of a new talent. I mean… do you not even realize you cut out 90% of my content including all of sections where I outlined those counterarguments to say I didn’t make an argument? You ignored the detailed game design analysis, the extremely detailed breakdown of how the decision tree doesn’t work, the entire section where the Frost Shock decision branch reduces player mobility, and then said I resort simply to petty insults.

Because I said it was a stupid argument to claim a 5 minute cooldown providing a 10 second DR and 4 second stun makes a talent that provides 10% of our damage output a “utility tier.” If I’m pathetic because I find profoundly stupid statements to be profoundly stupid, what does that say about your literacy?

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16

Sorry, but making Frost Shock a root is pure awesome.

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17

As awesome as it sounds, this ability has more uses in PVP, and I feel it should be a PVP talent instead, thereby freeing up the slot for a PVE talent. Imagine both having root and having PE for the earth elemental defensive.

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Yeah, not to justify his argument, but since I did use PE for the majority of 8.0, I do have to say it can be used for utility, but the whole talent row is as you said primarily a dps talent row. I am 100% sure this guy is an Arena Player, solely for the fact that he believes PE is a utility talent for the stun and damage reduction, because Arena Players are the only one that actively utilize this talent because each match resets the cooldowns on all your major cooldown abilities. Which is why I hate Arenas tbh, I myself prefer World PvP and BGs, but that’s beside the point. Anyways, as you stated the utility is there, but it’s just an added bonus to the damage increase you gain from these talents. Blizzard has basically made SoP fill the role of Exposed Elements and replaced Exposed Elements with Earthen Rage which was the talent that was where SoP is now. Lul.

19

LOL hes trolling his own thread. He doesn’t want a discussion, he wants to whine and anyone not agreeing with him “eats lead paint”

I enjoy SoP as a difference in tactics in pvp. Thats all that it needs to be to be viable. FUN.

If that makes you cry, cry into the bottle gypsy. I need tears for mana potions.

2 Likes
20

Yeah, SoP is Exposed Elements with a bunch of new caveats, dead end decisions that lead to no DPS gains, some options that actually make the talent a dead choice (unprecedented in 8.0 game design), and reduces your movement.

But sure Melesandria, because someone says something mind numbingly stupid and I call them on it, I’m unwilling to entertain disagreement. I had to go point-by-point with Gron because it was clear he didn’t even read my OP or my response to him. His last response to me didn’t even reference a single point I made to him and then declared that I hadn’t made any points. And you know that despite him not even responding to my OP, going off on diatribes already directly addressed, I didn’t insult him until he ignored my entire reply and tried to respond to it anyway. I don’t understand why so many of you Shamans on this forum are incapable of basic literacy, logic, or sound argumentation.