Enhancement has been exclusively using DW for actual gameplay since TBC launched in January 2007.
Hunters currently retaining the ability to DW, despite spells clearly being designed to require a 2H, means very little. Survival can currently still equip a ranged weapon, yet they are a melee spec that uses 2handers, and have been that for the last 8 years.
Sacrificing a talent point for DW is also a ridiculous stance. MM has Lone Wolf as a talent and they have been trying to have it made baseline and properly balanced for years.
Adding DW for Survival as anything other than a cosmetic glyph is a waste of the Devâs time and resources, as it would detract from their focus of getting the best version of Survival ready for launch in 2 months, and would require rebalancing the spec for both weapon options instead of investing that time into making the spec the best it can be. Sacrificing a talent point for DW is also a ridiculous stance.
At least as balanced as WW (which already requires under-the-hood conditional aura buffs that you ignore to make the balancing process look easier than it is)? Yes.
Because otherwise you simply flip non-choices from essentially-must-2H to essentially-must-DW. And you risk muddling the talent tree and wasting other would-be developments just to swing the pendulum in favor of more time and expense required to gear up SV.
I do not want to squash enthusiasm, but I must offer a word of a warning from a former Frost DK main. We asked for 2handed back for a very long time, thought we hit the jackpot when they actually did it, but little did we realize the mistake we made. Frost has been had so many design and balance issues pop up between DW and 2handed that is has cost the spec years of meaningful development/changes just to try and make the 2 weapon types work, we thought we would have meaningful choice between the two but it ended boiling down to Oblit was the 2hander build and Breath was the DW build with no in betweens or options. Hopefully if they brought DW for Surv, they would give it the monk treatment where it didnât matter what weapon set you used, but if they do the Frost DK treatment, shut that down as fast as you can and pray.
just to make it clear DW wont be a talent point. Base if not on the class side only.
I do also fear that they will become like FDKs. At this point too late for TWW⌠lets be honest. but its possible for the next one⌠IF they feel like it âŚevery class has they balance issues. as long as 2h stays super good. DW much like FDK will up to you. Making it cosmetic sets a big precedent for all classes making 2h into DW 1hâŚmakes little sense to meâŚ
They have enough brain power over there at blizz to make an effort. or pass a survey as they have done in the past, see how desired it is.
Well open up a post on the druid side and see what happens LOL! but in all seriousness they seem to be forcing surv into some weird one or the other spec anyways with the recent changes. so whos to say it wont suck anyways in TWWâŚ
so i dont see a reason why they cant incorporate it for us seeing they are forcing us to chose a side anywaysâŚ
I would still welcome it in any shape or form. Itâs a bit sad that other classes have gotten the requested treatment of added weapon styles and Hunter, despite having people constantly ask for it is completely ignored.
Hunter used to be a Ranged and Melee hybrid, with focus mainly on ranged. It had a Melee/traps talent tree and could dual-wield/2h. It then got turned into only ranged but could funnily enough still wear melee weapons as 2h/dual wield. Then we come to Legion and Hunter gets a melee spec back in SV. But weâre forced into 2h because of some lame artifact weapon. 4 expansions later and it still looks like weâll be forced into 2h. Although itâs only a few key abilities that are the only thing blocking dual-wield in truth.
Very sad. I truly hope Blizzard implements dual-wield. Itâs been done before and half the work is done already.
bottom line is it wont be hard, they wont change 2H set up , just make sure the 3 melee attacks we have can adjust to DW, and some of the names of the spells do fit DW lets be honest here. they will never stop tweaking and fixing balance issues across all classes. The fact we have to get 1 more weap LOL big whoop other classes do it so be real. IF someone really wanted to mess with it over at Blizz im sure they can make it work
If they balance dw and 2h like ww monk where it doesnât have any playstyle changes and the dps is about the same then Iâm fine with it. I donât want survival to fall into the trap of frost DK where 2h and dw have completely different playstyles (making it hard to balance, plus a problem if someone who likes one weapon type yet prefers the other playstyle). I like 2h melee weapons and want to continue to use one on my hunter. I can understand the desire to for dw after seeing Rexxar though.
Of course it must be done right to not gimp the whole class. If they can mirror the WW monk set up even better. I get it for the FDK i loved DW frost but hated the playstyle. So i getcha for suure. i hope they do something cool for FDKs tooâŚ
Yeah eh Rexxar 25-26 years ago had the DW he been sticking with it all through out!
I look at hunters all though history and hunters usually use a spear IRL because of how versatile and powerful the weapon is. It fits the Surv hunter fantasy as being a hybrid melee/range fighter since spears tend to be longer than other weapons (set aside giga-sized fantasy weapons). The issue that the DW vs 2H Surv hunter topic has is that even though the spear makes logical sense, fantasy mediaâs most famous ranger portrayals have often shown them dual-wielding. Drizzt and our boy Rexxar are the most notable examples and Aragorn from LotR has a 2H sword but a lot of people consider him a fighter of some sort. I feel like the Ranger/Hunter fantasy archetype have a hard time being defined in a lot of cases. You think paladin, mage, rogue, druid and you KNOW what youâre getting. You think ranger, you can get multiple types with different expectations thrown into a bag and shaken around then suddenly your left with a confused class that doesnât know what itâs trying to do.
Some people expect:
Bow and arrow marksmanship
Naturalist who lives off the land
Fighter with the powers of nature magic
Archer with the powers of nature magic
Master of beasts
Media sometimes presents rangers as a leader of sorts
A lot of these categories can overlap but some of them clash together as well and it usually depends on what your personal idea of a ranger is. For me, I love the ranger who uses either/both weapons, nature magic, and has a pet. Someone thinks of them as exclusively a bow and arrow marksman. Someone else thinks of them as a Marksman with a pet but NO magic.
On top of fantasy archetype expectations, you have to balance game mechanics and the prior history of having RSV. The old RSV filled a fantasy that MSV just doesnât and a lot of people are upset they had their fantasy taken away and then being told by past Blizzard âIt was always meant to be this way, deal with itâ. People donât like the way that the situation was handled and the DW vs. 2H argument just feels like fallout from RSV vs. MSV.
âMOM, I want McDonalds!â
âNo, we have food at home.â
âThen can we AT LEAST have chicken strips at home?!â
âWeâre having spaghettiâ child screams
âBlizzard, I want RSV back!â
âNo, it was always meant to be meleeâ
âCan we AT LEAST get DW so we can be like Rexxar?!â
âYou get 2H with spearsâ 18-30 year old screams
No one would have said anything if they added MSV in addition to RSV but they took it away instead and now this is the result. Blizzard should have revamped RSV into a magic archer archetype and added MSV as a 4th hunter spec.
Yeah very true statement all round! i loved RSV back when it was still aroundâŚso yeah they may not give a total darn at all about Surv and class fantasy.
But at least before the end of this triple expac saga I would like to see them just giving us this one, since RSV aint coming back. Tho a magic archer with all sorts of different spell shots would rock
I donât think anyone is asking for or wish for the FDK treatment. I donât see how they even could try to get that to work with SV. They canât get a proper ST and AoE build in the same tree as is.
But yes, it would absolutely be best to implement it like with Monk where itâs just the weapon type you pick, with the same rotation/builds for either. Keeps it cohesive and easier to balance.
I think what people want is to play their class and spec while being able to fight the way they want. And many of us still remember when we ran around in the earlier expansions with dual-wield or 2h coupled with our ranged weapon and want it back. Be it with two 1-handed axes like Rexxar or any other combo.
I think what is confusing me is that from the perspective of Blizzard regarding dual-wield itâs something that they have given to other classes. They have a lot of the work already done since animations are there, we can use the weapons and can dual-wield. It is something that has been constantly asked for since Legion and seems to only increase in requests and itâs something that makes sense, weâve had it before and we want it back. With all this in consideration I just canât see why they havenât implemented it yet⌠like what factor holds them back? Is the Hunter lead dev anti dual-wield for personal preferences? (I know we donât have class developers, I think? but what else could it be?)
You could just as easily point out hatchets and machetes and things like that for making logical sense due to versatility and convenience. I would easily argue that a spear is primarily common as an ancient weapon the way you are describing it. AKA prior to things like guns and bombs. I suppose it depends on your definition of what a âhunterâ is, but spears would struggle to be effective in any sort of overgrowth involving dense trees, be it forest or jungle. Spears were far more common in the open field of warfare than as solely a âhuntingâ weapon of choice, unless you are talking a VERY LONG time ago.
So suggesting that a spear makes âlogical senseâ goes right out the window. Even in gameplay, look at the D&D Ranger, itâs always been two smaller melee weapons when using melee. Not stealthing around with a giant pole sticking above their heads, or getting caught in tree cover and brush, or banging into stuff.
Hunters in this game are trackers, stealthy players (see Camo), and survivalists (melee spec). The 2h weapon aspect of our gameplay is antithetical to the notions of what defines our class, itâs simply been an easier weapon type to balance ânumbersâ around. Thereâs an argument if you are hunting âBIGâ game to using a spear, but thatâs more around large-animal->large-weapon than it being the usual choice. But that same argument could then be made against bows, too.
I would agree with this, you would definitely see it more as an ancient hunting weapon for big game and on the battle field as opposed to dense forests or jungle so it would just depend on the context around the Hunter. This being another argument for having the option to DW. I know hunting spears are still used today for wild boar which I would say is a recreational choice rather than a functional one but you could say that about any type of hunting in our modern era. Hatchets and machetes are less for fighting and more for utility. They can be used to fight but range is king.
Again, all of this is predicated on what the individuals idea of a ranger fantasy archetype is. In DnD you could just be straight Bow and Arrow pew pew or you could be a half-caster with nature powers. Also I feel like the choice to bring two melees over a spear is a gameplay choice over anything else.
Spear 1d6 pierce (vers 1d8)
Longsword 1d8 slash (vers 1d10)
Two Shortswords 1d6 pierce.
Also spears can come in shorter sizes if you want. I would usually put the spear at about my characters height which is only a little longer than a 2H sword and MUCH lighter. A spear can be handled well enough to get through forests in an adventuring party.
I wish we could make more use out of Camo in wow, i love the ability and I feel like its very niece for skipping packs in dungeons or self healing. Spears arenât JUST for big game hunting, humans arenât big game and humans have used it against each other for centuries. Big game is also (in good olâ 'MURICA) defined what it is by each state. Here in Florida, white-tailed deer, wild hogs, turkeys, and black bears are considered big game.
Most importantly, if you are in the wild and fighting an animal that can easily kill you (i.e. Brown Bear, Moose, Wolves, Wild Boar) you want to be as FAR away from it as possible. If youâre close enough to stab it with a sword or hatchet, itâs already on top of you and youâre too late. Ranged weapon > Spear > Sword/hatchet
Both weapon types fit the class fantasy thereâs no point to argue lol its all preference at the end of the day by the hunter/ranger/wtvr. Daggers, hatchets it all kills in the end lol.
I just think we are also wayyy over thinking it. so far on this thread we pretty much went over all the reason WHY they must bring that back. so far we played it out for them.
if a tauren can be a rogue iâm sure we can get our DW back. its not going to be the craziest update/give backsies
In the word of Shia leBeuf JUST DO IT blizz ⌠please! lol
Frost DK is a mess, I donât want to have a class plagued by weapon balancing. I also donât want to be forced to dual wield constantly if the BiS weapon that season is DW. And I donât want to have to deal with grinding TWO BiS weapons and upgrading both.
I love the Spear/2h only aspect of survival. If I wanted to play a DW agility class, Iâd play any of the other agility classes.
All i see is bunch of i donât want to do that and this. bah why do you even play the game then ? plenty of classes farm more than 1 weapon. As do hunters ranged, melee whatever.
People are not forced to play DW. if the weapon makes DW BIS then deal with it. if you donât want to DW, use 2h and be 2-3% behind lol BIG WHOOP.
It fits perfect with the class it always did. if the argument is WUAH 1 more weapon to farm, then maybe you should play Civ 6 or Total war or something not MMORPG.
Laziness is the epitome of WOW and we shouldnât just succumb to mediocrity. Agility class like hunter who had DW since day 1, should be able to. if some people want 2h keep using 2h nothing changes.
