Can we just fix Druids?

I’m not saying it’s classic, and it’s not null, void, or pointless.
Blizzard has taken inspiration for retail from classic in the past.
A notable example is when they did the initial change to add a GCD to many abilities that didn’t have one in the first place. At the time it had become a game of who can macro as many abilities together at once, or who can press them the quickest/has the fastest reaction time.
The current iteration is a decent balance, allowing many classes to choose between which abilities to press, as having GCDs added to them adds a greater risk/reward for pressing the correct abilities at the correct moment.
You also have to keep in mind that classic is a past iteration of the same game, as is Dragonflight or any other expansion. It’s not out of their scope to look at the past and see what was done good, and what was done right. It’s not a negative to learn from the past expansions and what was implemented.
I would even go as far to say that the pruning changes back in WoD/Legion (I think?) were also inspired by Classic, assuming internal development had taken place at that time.
I remember specifically in MoP every class had many spells and abilities, and when it came to PvP, had an answer to just about everything other classes could throw at them.
I recall PvP in mop had a higher skill ceiling than currently and a lot of it came down to was knowing what you could press and when to press it to counter what.
I wouldn’t doubt there’s a few new devs on the WoW team, and learning from the past of what previously made WoW great should never be outside their scope.

Yes, doing nothing is an alternative, one that does not feel good in the slightest.
Manually shifting still wastes potential damage, but again, using the time of 2 GCDs instead of 1 if you include the time it takes for forms to go through their cooldown (provided you don’t use an ability to instantly shift back into form). The shred/rake should be a given, yes, but even the act of using shred to psudo-shift back into form still uses energy, and is still a waste if you’re already max combo points. Granted you can somewhat mitigate this by using one of the new talents they implemented like Coil to Spring (it still doesn’t make up for bad class design).

I’m not putting it under the assumption that your target is immobile or standing in one place (however they very well could be if you use predatory to root, or they’re trying to cast something). If you use a GCD or two to shift while running up to them, most likely you’ll be off GCD around the time you catch up to them, provided you aren’t slowed or immobile to do so. This would allow you to use an ability like maim once you’re within melee range.
However, if you have to shred (within melee range) first, just to get back into form if your form is on cooldown still, then that is still considered wasted time. Note, that if skull bash is off cooldown, then great, immediately skull bash after shredding, but if it’s not then yes, you have to wait the full GCD to be able to maim or otherwise.
Also, if you spec into tiger dash or wild charge, you could indeed catch up to them within a GCD’s time, many times that’s how I do, you can instantly shift out of a root and tiger dash into a jump (to avoid snares) to catch up, granted it varies depending on how far away your target is, but tiger dash is generally a safe bet. Wild charge is also an alternative since it also snares, and roots your target if used in bear, and it’s off GCD so you can instantly go bear and charge if you get rooted (this was something done even in classic). The downside is these are again cooldowns, so you can only do these every so often while you’re being spam slowed or rooted by other classes. It was bad enough they nerfed feral slow down to 20%, where other classes have upwards of 50~90% slows.
They later somewhat fixed this by letting infected wounds stack twice with a pvp talent, but that becomes another issue because we’re using 1 of the 3 PvP talents we’re given just to somewhat get back what we originally had, and what other classes have superior versions of. Druid mobility isn’t even at the top anymore, and having gimped slows only contributes to that fact.

It does, but incapacitating roar is also situational, and you don’t want to take it in many situations due to the DR tables (it DRs with hunter’s trap and other important CC spells iirc). Not only that, but it replaces bash, which might be okay in PvE, as I run incap there as guardian, but in PvP you almost always want to take bash as feral or otherwise.
This also doesn’t remedy the issue of shifting forms as it turns you into bear form for using it, meaning you still need to use another GCD to re-enter cat form, whereas bash is usable in cat form.

Actually it is an option and it is possible, as I have already stated you can with cooldowns.
-Prowl to enter cat form (provided you’re out of combat.)
-Tiger Dash or Dash to instantly enter cat form once you leave form
-Shadowmeld to drop combat, then prowl to instantly enter cat form
-Tiger’s Fury to enter cat form.
-Berserk to enter cat form.
I haven’t played wow in a while, only recently jumping back into it so not sure if I recall there’s more, but these are the ways I remember to instantly shift back into cat form to avoid the cooldown when leaving form. These ways (except dash/tiger’s dash) also do not trigger the GCD so you’re freely able to act instantly once in cat form.
Dash/Tiger’s Dash is the exception because it does trigger the GCD if used outside of cat form, but it can also bypass the form cooldown after you leave it.
The fact is powershifting as it was is still possible, just very limited. This might be good as you do need to play more tactfully with your uses of it, but also severely limits your mobility options when other classes can spam slow and root you. Again, Fluid Form does somewhat mitigate the clunkiness, but it’s situational since it’s melee range if you’re guardian or feral and Just having these limited options still doesn’t prevent the chunkiness of how it feels to shift once you run out of them.
Also I want to mention I’m using the term powershifting as the ability to instantly return to the form you shifted out of solely to remove roots/slows, not allowing us to regen more energy or rage like we were able to using the wolfshed helm and furor.

I don’t see how you don’t see it being clunky?
Waiting the time of 2 GCD’s instead of 1 doubles the amount of time it would take to properly and efficiently remove slows/roots while returning to form. The time it takes to do so drastically increases if you were to spam change forms in order to do so, provided you’re being constantly slowed.
1/2
2/4
4/8
8/16
going from 8 shifts using only 8 GCDs to 16 is a massive difference in time consumed and this time only drastically increases the more you shift. I stated before in situations where a single GCD can mean life or death, every second counts.
This isn’t too much of an issue in PvE as there aren’t many situations where you would need to shift immediately in and out of form, but if you’ve done arenas you should know how fast paced they can be. The only way I can see it not feeling “clunky” is if your reaction time or decision-making isn’t fast enough to account for the extra delay.

I’m not sure if classic would make it that far to Legion, I assumed they would probably just experiment and do remixes of the later expansions like they did with MoP.
Ideally, a Classic+ would be a great route to go, but not in the way they currently are going with Season of Discovery. There are some great ideas there, but I feel like they went a bit overboard. Classic/Vanilla was great because every class had a use, everyone felt unique. Retail feels a lot more homogenized in comparison.

That’s why I said psudo, as it’s more or less a crude version of what we were capable of doing in the past. It’s become even more situational as the only option to do so is with cooldowns or if a target is in melee range and you’re using the Fluid Form talent. I believe a lot of the tools you have like dash to shift back into cat form were still possible to do when the cooldown to forms wasn’t a thing. Currently the most efficient way to remove spam slows/roots would be to alternate between cat/bear or cat/travel while also cancelling the current form you’re in midway through the GCD, since each shift in or out of form removes slows/roots, and to do this I believe you would need to disable SecurityAbilityToggle.

For nearly a decade it has felt awful, yes. I had a druid friend that used to play wow and quit for the same reason as well, it’s been an issue ever since then, yes.
I’m sure I’m not the only one to notice this, or post about it, granted the posts about the issue were probably more frequent then than now. Most new players joining past that point wouldn’t even know about this issue unless maybe they went back and played classic.

It is dumb, yes I agree, most of the time you’ll use TF off cooldown and using it to remove a root or slow would be very situational. You wouldn’t always need to shift out and back into form using TF, and in most cases you would only do so the moment it comes off CD and you want to break a root or slow, but doing so for every TF, or saving it specifically for that reason would be pretty dumb?

It again depends on the situation, it’s situational for sure, but being unable to slow/root a target would bring you back to the original point of it being very strong.
What if your healer is oom and attempting to drink behind a pillar and you have no hard CC available to stop a moonkin? If you spam roots/slows he would easily be able to instantly get out of every single one of them without using a single GCD simply by pressing wrath and moving.
I can see how for the most part it’s not as important because it’s a ranged class, but there are situations where it’s pretty broken and the only class that can spam remove roots/slows without using any GCDs.
You can technically look at shifting back into form on a single GCD as a “dispel”, as if you’re dispelling the slow/root. The fact that it now takes the time of 2 GCDs to be able to enter your previous form again while other classes can usually spam roots/slows on you within a single GCD makes it incredibly inefficient. I have stated some ways around this, but your options are limited.

No, they started with classic and moved away from it as time has gone on. Theyve taken inspiration from retail and added it to classic

Not from classic. Was to stop a 1 button kill play style.

Because its been this way for nearly a decade. How many times have you taken 10+ roots back to back that you werent able to make it out of because someone had infinite resources to spam instant roots every second for 10 seconds straight?

Then you wont run into this “problem” and will be playing in your promise land. Cheers

Because theyve said they dont want to go back to that as it was unfair advantage making you essentially immune to snares/roots. This is that middle ground.

…after 3 months muscle memory takes over and you dont notice. Lets not be disingenuous here. If youre unable to adapt that says more about you than the system.

No. These “situations” are outliers. You bringing them in as your argument like its a baseline is faulty reasoning.

Lets look at this shall we.

If its a melee, theyre in melee range. Youre still able to add pressure with damage every GCD with Fluid Form. If its a ranged, then they arent doing any damage to you and you’re still making headway every GCD towards them as they’re having to stand still to spam cast snares/roots as all instants have a GCD attached to them.

Uhm, It’s clear it’s gone both ways, they’ve taken inspiration from retail to classic and classic to retail. I think you’re thinking of Vanilla wow.
I appreciate you partaking in this conversation but your views seem to be pretty close-minded, try to look at it from our classes perspective at a high level.

Uhm, actually it was. Try to be more open-minded. Yes macroing everything together was part of the issue, but there was more to it than that. They even specifically mentioned it in the early days of WoW while they were working on the GCD changes. Here’s the blue post, I went and did the google search for you! (no need to thank me): https://www.wowhead.com/news/comprehensive-list-of-abilities-added-to-the-gcd-in-battle-for-azeroth-283908
I’d recommend watching the video as well, Ion mentions some of what I mentioned in previous posts. He also gives some pretty good examples about how the GCD changes were to make your choices more impactful. Go back to an earlier time in wow when nearly all your abilities were on the GCD and you’ll see what I mean.
The changes affected more than just druids though, many classes were left feeling a lot more clunky due to the changes. Many of the GCD changes to druids were reverted, but shifting still remains as one of the more clunky mechanics for druids, which doesn’t make sense as shapeshifting is a core mechanic to our class (the NPCs even say it if you do the class boost haha).
If the idea was make your choices more valuable or lower the skill ceiling, you could argue it does the opposite since there’s only a few ways to instant shift back into form that people don’t properly utilize, along with a talent that gives us the ability to psudo-shift in the correct circumstances (need to be in melee range for feral/guardian), and now instead of having a single macro for powershifting, you now have to have multiple for each of the ways to instant shift back into form, or quickly press the keybinds manually. Even with decent finger dexterity, manually pressing them would be slower than a simple single macro. Also I think it would make more sense to have less cooldowns, no classes need 3 different burst abilities that you can macro into a single button. It would make more sense if you had just one or two, maybe a long cooldown for high burst, and a shorter cooldown for better sustain inbetween the long cooldown’s timer.

Plenty of times actually! Specially in BGs/RBGs (try flag carrying!). Keep in mind that you do go on root DR after 3 roots, but that doesn’t help you if you’re still being spam snared for 50%, 70%, or 90%. It’s far more noticeable when you’re fighting classes like mages that can spam root/snare you as well.
It’s clear that this is an issue with druids as more classes have gotten more cc and mobility options over the years. It’s funny because they even made a new gem (Determined Bloodstone) that increases the damage of your next attack based on the amount of times you suffer a snare.
Just a thought, a nice alternative idea Blizzard can play with is to change snares so you’re immune for the first 0.5 or 1 second after removing them. Snares have always been the one cc you can spam indefinitely with no DR. This could even be incorporated into a talent.
Giving druids a talent like DKs have too, would possibly work, where you cannot be brought below 100% movement speed. I realize we already have this talent in the form of Malorne’s Swiftness, but currently that only works while in travel form.
If they were to change Infected Wounds to be a baseline 40% slow (remove the pvp talent), that could also free up a PvP talent slot for us to take something like Tireless Pursuit, making the shifting a little more manageable.

Did you actually read my post? That doesn’t change the fact that the issue still persists while playing retail WoW?
Outside of the current iteration of shifting, the only other time it was changed so drastically was during Cataclysm, when you were only able to shift snares and not roots (this was also reverted after the expansion end). Even in MoP, druid (specifically feral) mobility was amazing, but iirc monks were just about on par back then.

But they did go back on it? (hint: psudo-shifting) technically speaking, as you can psudo-shift using the talent, and moonkins can alltogether avoid any type of GCD to enter or leave form? If you’re capable of processing thoughts then you know as well as I do that it’s still possible to shift like you used to, you just have to rely on cooldowns and a very situational talent, which doesn’t help how clunky it’s become (essentially the skill cap has actually increased for efficiently playing feral, which is the opposite intended effect of what they wanted to do). Reverting the change altogether would be a great middle ground for all specs.

I’m not saying I’m not able to adapt, and it’s not about muscle memory. I’ve been gladiator/+2.7k plenty of times post-shift nerf. I’m not sure if you’re capable of understanding that the point I keep bringing up is that it still feels slow and clunky as opposed to what it used to be, even with adapting and overcoming it, that doesn’t change that it still feels slow and clunky.
Perhaps the only way I could not feel this way is if I hadn’t known how great or fun druid used to play. Even then I’m sure I would have found out eventually by playing classic.

It’s not that it’s not a good class, far from it, it’s that a majority of the fun in shifting forms was removed when that change was introduced and we’ve had little to no compensation or alternatives up until now. Druid doesn’t feel as fluid or smooth as it used to as waiting to shift back into form (if your alternatives are on cooldown or not in melee range) is not fun or enjoyable. The skill cap on druid was raised for shifting and removing slows and roots because you have to utilize separate forms to do so due to the cooldown when leaving one, Blizzard unintentionally did the opposite of what they wanted to do by nerfing it and made the class harder for new players to master than it already was, and more clunky to those that know what they’re doing.

These situations are not outliers, I gave very simple situations in which they would be useful, and I wasn’t giving them as a “baseline” for reasoning. I can give you a lot more if you’d really like to hear.
For example: You can use any of the instant shifting methods for even the most minor roots and snares if you really want to save a GCD, even if it isn’t mandatory within the situation, even if you’re already ahead of your target in healing or dps. Would you want to? In most situations, no. You’d usually want to save them for when you actually need to escape or catch up to someone, else you get caught with no mobility options. Also if you’re trying to escape, then simply spam shifting forms might get you away depending on what you’re fighting, but generally the base movement speed of cat/travel won’t get you far nowadays with how many mobility options and snares/roots/cc classes have to catch up to you.

This is again, useful up to a certain extent. The moment they leave your range you’re unable to utilize this method anymore. Furthermore, it still uses 35(rake)/40(shred) energy every time you want to do it, and generally you don’t want to waste energy if you’re in a situation where you’re already max combo points. If you think spamming shred while shifting forms is a great idea in situations like that then I think you might need to brush up on how you play feral in PvP. You also have to keep in mind the class you’re fighting, if it’s a mage this becomes moot the moment they blink away, same with a warlock that teleports, or any other class that can swiftly move outside of your melee range. Even other melee classes if they decide to stun or root you and swifly move outside of your range in that instant. Keep in mind as well, our slow has 2 stacks we need to build up, whereas most classes have a single button they can press if they want to snare a target (ours is also less effective than other classes, which you could say might be balanced due to us also having higher base movement speed than other classes).

Again, it is a good start. It’s great we have a psudo-shift that somewhat resembles what we were once capable of and I’m glad they’re starting to look into our mobility and give us tools we can utilize to combat the amount of mobility and cc they’ve been giving to other classes, but there’s certainly more Blizzard can do for us.
I would even take adding a mana cost to forms, so you could only utilize spam shifting every so often within a certain period of time, and when you’re oom, that’s when you could also utilize the other options like dash or shadowmeld prowl to instantly shift back into form while avoiding the mana cost or GCD, That would even give you the ability to mix those in with regular shifting to prolong your mana pool.

I’m just going to highlight this section right here.

This is what I’ve been talking about the entire time. Even with powershifting, you’ll have a GCD go to waste here because no one is in range. So it doesn’t hurt manually shifting because there’s no one in range to attack.

This is essentially no different that constantly staying in cat form while being 15 yards away from your target. You’re not using GCD’s. You have the time to shift. The amount of times that someone is going to root you and stay in melee range to allow you to effectively power shift is an outlier.

I was hoping that the next patch would fix Druids, but no luck. Maybe they will fix our talents trees and completely redo our boring Hero Talents, in the next next next next next next next patch. Maybe. Fingers crossed.

The hero tree is kinda boring yeah, my issue with the feral one is both of them are completely reliant on rng procs, and rng isn’t really fun, specially in PvP.

Killing Strikes

1 Like

I think a simple fix for our Shifting to become useful again in mitigating the Spam CC is to make us immune to Snares and slows for a few seconds into that shift.

That or have our Shifting act upon a completely different global cooldown table.

I would love to see other classes have a harder time catching us again like it used to be. Its one of those edges we had over the rest and it will get the enemy thinking again instead of mindlessly crowd controlling us. Sure it was seen as a little pesky, but that was kinda the point considering our lack of defenses. Now its just endless passive slows, shackle spams, snare totems, spear tethers and Deathgrips. We have no counters or defensives for these except going into bear form and chunking 30% hp with maul, preying that your team will come rescue you.
The best we got is incap roar, which will give us 3 seconds of respite, but its still not enough time to get us out of range of the enemy. I have to waste a GCD going back into travel form because bear is as slow as a snail, another GCD to leap away and BAM Death gripped and shackled right back into the center of pure chaos.

The PVP community knows this and we end up being the first targeted in any BG or arena brawl. “Go for the Feral! They’re an easy kill!”

1 Like