1 min Sac my beloved.
Seriously though, C tier healers here, at least make it 1.3 or 1.5 mins, right now Sacrifice of the Just feels terrible to take.
This nerf was done because S2 DF when Hpal was 25% ahead in HPS of everything else, its true Sac was the best external in the game back then, but now Hpal is currently one of the worst healers, meanwhile you see every ret taking this talent and never using Sac even once in a full run…
I don’t usually ever say “slap in the face,” but it really does feel bad when Ret/Prot can shave a minute off the blessing with a talent point, and Holy can only reduce CD by 15 seconds.
Holy sacrifice is way way better than rets. Come on
Ours doesn’t reduce the damage taken though, it just transfert it.
Holy has a 16sec 15% DR effect on top through echoing blessing on both Sac and BoP.
Which makes BoP MUCH more useful than it is for Ret since we don’t have echoing blessing.
We do have access to a small “DR” on Sac through Templar talent but it doesn’t compare and it’s only for us.
I feel this might be why they don’t give you that reduction.
Would you make this trade-off?
No more echoing blessing but 1min Sac?
From my POV it’s a bad trade-off but I’m not a healer.
I would legit take Echoing Blessing on Ret though.
Making BoP generally useful in all scenarios where someone takes damage and having an actual DR on Sac would huge for us, even with the added CD.
And isn’t that like the literal only thing Ret have that Holy doesn’t?
And I wouldn’t even call that a net plus over Holy again because of echoing blessing.
Unbound used to be Ret/prot exclusive as well and now its not…
There’s literally no utility on Paladin that Holy doesn’t have in an equal or better form than the other 2, save for Spellwarding that is prot only and that niche CD reduction on Sac.
Which, again, is questionable to argue its even an advantage at all considering what echoing blessing does.
But hey I’m down for 1,5min sac + echoing blessing for everyone.
I would take it being honest. 1 talent point for just 15 seconds just feels terrible to take, but most of the other class tree options are no better either way.
Make it a choice node, either Echoing blessings make Sac have a CD of 2 min/1.8 or you can have a weaker version, with 1 min / 1.3 / 1.5 min. This nerf happened when it the spec was grossly overpowered so it was justified, which is no longer the case and hasn’t been for quite a while. Community perception about this spec is nothing short of horrible and has been since S3 DF.
While BoP DR is nice, 15% DR on 5/4 min cooldown is just a little bonus, something that you use on pretty rare ocassions, a handful actually for that DR specifically, being the main purpose ignore Physical damage or remove bleeds.
This is mostly a petition because considering right now Hpal is currently the healer with less Hps of the bunch ( this is kinda up to debate though, since Raid HPS =/= M+ HPS even if they are the same exact talents), even then, devo and Aura mastery may be enough for Hpal HPS to sit at bottom of all healers in a raid environment, but if this is gonna be the case for M+ too, why not have other ways to deal with damage on a more frequent basis given this is one of the main themes of the spec?
Honestly, that would still be sick as ret or prot. Playing prot will always be my favorite tank because of the amount of tools you have to help the group. (from a tank perspective/standard)
Really? This genuinely comes as a surprise to me.
I’m curious what other Holy paladin have to say.
I mean, I think Echoing is right at home as a choice with Unbound.
The thing is, it doesn’t just affect Sac, it has implication for all blessings and it makes sense to see it where it is at the moment, IMO.
But yeah, if Echoing exist Sac probably can’t be at 1min simultaneously.
Yes but the occasions where BoP is actually useful are so few and far between that having the option to use it as a DR would make it a lot better.
Because the moments where it IS useful aren’t meant to be insurpassable without BoP.
They are meant to be hard but manageable for all specs regardless, so it really doesn’t matter that you have it or not because nothing is made with BoP being required.
If that makes sense.
Is it a throughput issue?
I’m not familiar with the healer actual HPS competition.
Because my read on the whole situation for the raid (competitively speaking) is more that there’s 1 specific healer doing much more, damage wise, than even the second in line.
So the throughput is kind of whatever for the checks but the actual plus of the damage makes a difference.
Am I wrong?
Oh yeah, that would be very nice!
This is why I would like them to give us a choice. Most of use agree that 1.8 mins is too much though, you can ask in the discord.
In raid we are ~7-8 % behind middle of the pack and in last place (just slighty behind prevoker and hpriest, which also need buffs for raid). This hasn’t been an issue for M+, just because current HPS requirement arent that high (yet). Remains to be seen how much the gap is though
Personally i’ve always hated when cooldowns are extra long for very little gain.
If Hpal’s HPS has to deliberately held back because of cooldowns, then those cooldowns should be available with significantly more up time, in my opinion to make up for it. Otherwise you just feel weak moment to moment and actively discouraged from using your “strengths” because unnecessarily high costs.
As a general concept that’s something I understand and share as well.
But what about the specifics I mentioned?
I was supposing that Sac was longer on Holy because of the existence of Echoing Blessing and the significant improvement it brings.
I think it’s fair to assume is has something to do with it at least.
Would you rather have Sac on a 1min CD instead of Echoing Blessing?
If the options was Echoing Blessings’s 15% DR on a 4 minute cooldown or a more consistent 1 minute Sac, I’ll 100% take Sac every time and think people are crazy an 18 sec DR every 4 minutes and consider that “significant improvements”.
To me, it’s only an improvement when it’s used and with a longer cooldown that use case is comparatively very tiny, maybe once every other pack or some change in M+ as opposed to something you can reasonably expect to use much more often with say a minute cooldown.
I’d compare it to Life Cocoon which I’ve always compared to BoP. I’ve always hated BoP because, while it’s great that it makes your target immunity to damage, it being on a 4 minute cooldown means I’m barely using it and instead saving it for when things are dicey and that immunity is needed. Meanwhile I was throwing down Life Cacoon’s like it was nothing because that thing was on like a 1.5ish sec cooldown, no matter what was going on, I knew it would be available again soon and that made it a fun ability to use, whereas BoP just feels boring to press in just about any situation where it doesn’t save someone from going splat.
That’s how I feel about comparing Echoing Blessings and Sac. Sac, at a minute, could be used whenever and would feel good to press because I know it’ll be ready if I need it again. I simply don’t feel the same about any of the spells Echoing Blessings buffs.
??
What do you mean?
Let’s take a step back, something got loss in the transmission…
For Holy
Sac is on a 2min CD
BoP is on a 5 min CD
Echoing Blessing gives BOTH Sac AND BoP an additional effect of 15% DR for the duration AND 8 sec after the blessing ends.
On top of buffing freedom with a speed increase as well.
This is a significant talent.
It’s not a DR on a 4 min CD, it’s 2 DR, one on 2min cd and 1 on 5min.
We can reduce the CD with further investment but my point was more about clarifying why you were mentioning it’s only 1 DR on a 4 min CD…
Azryel was talking about prefering having 1min Sac over 2min sac with Echoing Blessing.
They said they would make that trade any day, would you do the same?
That’s my question
You are right, I was laser focused on it more on Blessing of Protection part, but that still doesn’t change my overall point.
15% of DR that lingers on Blessings for 8 seconds is fine, if the cooldowns weren’t 2+ minutes long.
I’d say the only thing I wouldn’t want to lose is the speed boost on Freedom.
But I’d personally take the more consistent use of Sac at a minute than tacked on bonuses to other blessings with much more inconsistent use. And as such I’d 100% take a 1 minute SAC over a SAC with DR at 1.45-2min SAC.
Just so we’re clear, the talent Echoing Blessing says that those 2, in addition to what they already do, grant 15% DR for the duration AND for 8 sec after the blessing fades.
I just went to check and didn’t really pay attention to how long Sac last but it last 12sec.
So that’s 20 seconds of 15% DR, I think was mentioning something else higher up in the post.
BoP last 10 sec so it’s 18 seconds of DR.
So you’d rather have 1min Sac than have those effects?
I’m, again, really surprised, I didn’t expect this.
Unless your tank is consistently needing baby sitting, there’s few scenarios where you are going to get value of 20 seconds of DR, probably just big pulls + lust comes to mind.
Rather have a smaller DR, but to consistently have it when you need for a cast/one shot mechanic/ every 1/2 damage events. 30% is more than enough.
As a healer this is really valuable since you have more consistent control of your party HP, something Prot/Ret specializations wont really think much of other than their own healt pool.
I also agree on this take.
This I get, it’s probably too long and could be stronger with a lower uptime.
Could be 25% for the duration and no lingering.
Sac has a usefulness on the tank, BoP not soo much.
I’m just surprised, Sac in itself, is just a tool to share healthpool between us and the target.
I’d rather have things that actually decrease the damage being taken support wise as a DPS.
But that DPS perspective might be why I think so.
Yes I am aware.
Yes, 20 seconds of DR attached to Sac, and 18 on BoP sounds real nice, except when the cooldowns are 2+ or approaching that.
I’d much rather have a weaker Blessing that I can use more often, as is supposed to be the spec’s “fantasy” than only using them every now and again.
Which is why is technically worse than other pure DRs like pain sup and ironbark in its non-upgraded form.
I can see why a Echoing Blessings talent would be cool to have in exchange of 45 more seconds as both DPS and tank, since its not really your job to keep other party members alive other than a LoH here and there, but as a healer? Even old 1 min 20% sac and talents like Tempered in battle are goated for party health stabilization (even if LS is not even used anymore…)
I would take late DF 20% sac on 1 min + EBs over current iteration any day of the week.
It would make a good choice node. There are circumstances where it would be useful for sure.
Humm so what would be the optimal scenario here…
Unbound Freedom can’t be a thing at the same time as Echoing Blessing either, in my view…
They could break unbound Freedom, make it cast on us and our target baseline without the speed increase.
THEN fuse both the talent that reduces the CD of BoP and Sac, place this on a choice node with Echoing Blessing.
Place it where Divine Purpose is and move DP where Holy Rituals is, then finally delete holy ritual because who cares about this talent.
Make this available to all specs.
Would that look good?
I would take a 1-minute sac over the 2-minute one we currently have without echoing blessing. The flexibility of having a 1 minute CD is way better.
BoP also isn’t really used as a DR. Odds are if you’re using BoP you’re trying to save someone from physical damage.