So, your logic is that M+ should be changed because players liked it therefore it should be changed into a game mode that is more challenging but less people are involved in?
The interesting thing about this argument is that M+ scales endlessly meaning that at some point everyone, regardless of skill, is going to cap out and find their own individual meaning for “challenging”.
It sounds more like you just want to gatekeep gear than actually have a realistic response…
Again, they removed the 2-10 key range or 2-9 key range…. That is a lot of levels to remove. You can play “get good,” card all you want but there’s no denying a lot of difficulty levels were removed and thus options.
Remove low keys and high keys suffer too look at most of the big m+ pushers even they are complaining this season sucks so it isn’t just the opinion of bad players
not really
you start with m0
if you cant manage that keep practicing
then you go up to m1
if you cant manage that keep practicing
etc
this is how you progress
if you can’t beat m+2…you need to practice more, not whine on the forums. that won’t improve your game
them removing a bunch of levels is kind of immaterial if you can’t even beat 0s, 1s and 2s…practice
They really need to revert the tank changes they made. Playing tank now is a miserable experience and no one wants to do it. Therefore it is hard for any other role to get into a group because they are very few tanks. There is already so much on a tanks plate in M+; routing, grouping mobs, getting and keeping threat. The self-sustain they once had made this bearable. Doing all that and genuinely worried about surviving because you are now reliant on external heals feels awful.
The rewards from any gameplay need to be commensurate to the challenge. That’s game design 101.
Blizzard strayed from this with M+ previously, making it such a loot give-away that a lot of people only liked that aspect of it: the gravy train.
If people want to do low-effort M+ for appropriate rewards, they can do +2 and +3 keys. But what they want, is to do low-effort M+ and continue to get the best gear rewards in the game.
And that’s a big no-no. Monty Haul game design is self-destructive. We’ve known this since the early 1970’s.
my brew is gettin crushed by mobs in a m+5 and if i have one or two pugs in the group, it is usually curtains for the timer
No, they need to balance tanks across the board. Something they’ve never had any interest in doing, unfortunately.
As soon as you said M1 I knew the post wasn’t worth reading.
When those people complain about the other people who want “free gear”, while they claim they have slaved over a hot laptop and shed blood and tears to earn theirs, it almost feels like they’re upset that people are trying or giving up instead of paying them for carries. It’s like, “I should get gear just by playing the game, but those people should have to pay me for carries in order to get any gear.”
Calm down, guys. While i also disagree with Shadybolt we dont need to be rude. Its just a game.
It’s funny that M+ is a hellscape for PuGs, yet a total joke for organized groups.
It’s really not hard- getting your foot in the door (as a DPS) is the most challenging part of M+, no shot lol.
KSM/KSH just happens organically after that.
Firstly, this argument that past seasons just “gave loot away” isn’t true at all. What you found hard and others found easy is subjective. There are plenty of people right now cruising through +9 keys and will swear up and down they are “easy” and plenty of people struggling in the +5 range that find it very hard.
Right now a +10 is harder than some Mythic bosses. It’s driven tanks and healers away from the game which means less groups for people. That’s not in line with any of the systems. I have multiple friends who gave up on M+ because “Mythic raid is easier”.
And, for the record, what impact would “free gear” have on anyone anyway? So people can easily play multiple alts? They can enjoy their time in wow and easily find groups? They feel accomplished and not “hard stuck”? How does that affect you or anyone else that wants to push into the 12-14 range or beyond of keys?
I wouldn’t say 10s, 11s, or 12s are a total joke for coordinated discord groups.
Every activity in the game becomes phenomenally easier and more time-efficient when done with people you know how to work with, and talk to.
The rise of pugging as the primary game activity has been amusing to watch, over the years. All the people who would swear up and down, “You don’t need a guild to play the game anymore” who are now crapping their pants that they can’t even finish a dungeon.
It’s true that M+ is a hellscape for PuGs yet a total joke for organized groups. It’s fully intentional. But I’m not sure it’s funny that Blizzard decided to shoot themselves in the foot this way. It will result in longterm loss of participation in M+.
How much more are you willing to pay for the game if the participation of that content falls dramatically the way you want it to, leaving fewer players to subsidize the expensive content you think you deserve?
So I assume we’ll be seeing you in the next MDI in that case.
If you aren’t challenged in M+, then push and get into higher keys where it becomes more challenging.
Welcome to anything that includes other people. No it doesn’t magically turn something into crap just because you can’t get into keys, or make your own ones for that matter.
Yes, that’s the point. They reduced the number of key ranks so there are fewer “dead” tiers.
Mid keys are roughly from 3-7s. No, you don’t have to do “bleeding edge” content as a baseline but if you want the best rewards in the game you gotta do the stuff that is the most difficult. There’s a reason why the gear that drops from M+ is capped at Heroic and Mythic pieces from M+ is only available via the vault.
If you want to do low and mid keys, go and do 'em. They are still there. Low keys are roughly M0-3/4s, and mid keys are roughly from 4-7s.
No. The logic is that if you make a game too difficult, no one will play it. You make it too easy/rewarding for the content you partake in, people “finish” their time with the game and then quit. For a MMO you cannot have either one of these, and season 3 DF was too easy and it completely nuked people’s expectations of what M+ and the game overall is.
… is that your version of what I said is a strawman, and what I actually said is rooted in game design, psychology, and human behaviour.
You are categorically wrong if you think “bigger numbers” automatically equates to good. The data we have from Season 3 showcases that there were a huge number of people bringing unique characters. But anyone who played during Season 3 also knows that it wasn’t a very active season outside of the number of people gearing up their alts.
That doesn’t showcase players sticking around, that showcase people used it as a way to get gear and then not play for the remaining time of the season. Unless you were gearing up alts. To which we have zero data to indicate how many unique accounts did.
No. What I’m saying is rooted in understanding human psychology and player behavioural patterns.
What you are saying, alongside the others responding to me, is an emotional plea because “Oh look, free gear - that must be a good thing for the game because it benefits me!” No, it doesn’t work like that.
it has and always will be like that for DPS classes
there are 100x more of them because they have no responsibility in pugs
ironically they are extremely important, and running a dungeon with competent DPS is game changing
There isn’t any logic in it. Plus people aren’t ones to smash their heads against a wall. They usually just quit playing.
Also if this is an argument that mythic+ hands out more loot than raiding let’s circle back to me clearing out an entire raid and getting zero loot. There’s multiple systems in this game that are failing
Lol what?
As someone that used to PuG everything, PuGs are most certainly not as common as they used to be.
WotLK was PuG paradise, you could achieve anything with randoms.
WoW isn’t nearly as popular now, PuGs are a far cry now from what they used to be.
What’s more, is that PuGs were actually good back then, player skill has most definitely gone down.
Or, the good PuGGers quit.
Would regularly do H ToGC, H Ulduar, and H ICC, etc.
The fact that PuG M+ can’t do basic things like interrupt is more telling that most “good” PuG players no longer play.
Which makes sense. If you don’t have a guild or friends anchoring you to WoW, why stay? I know I’m a unique case, I prefer to PuG.
I can say with authority that I have never been given free gear from M+ ever. Comments about “human psychology” are laughable. This is a game. It’s supposed to be fun and not a chore.
If you want the game to survive and continue it needs to remain fun. It’s very clear that a large majority of people are not happy with the current system design.
Let me give you same basic human psychology: When people don’t have fun they quit and move on to something else.
That helps no one.