Can we discuss design philosophy for a second? (About the Fury nerfs)

I just want to hear, from a developer, what the intended design and gameplay are for Fury Warrior.

Every class/spec has a role that it fills in either 5-man or 20-man content. It has to, otherwise it would just never get taken, right?

Let’s look, for a second, at the role that all the melee DPS specs fill. I’m only considering utility that is unique to each class/spec that cannot be achieved by grabbing any other spec.

Windwalker Monks have Mystic Touch, Ring of Peace, and Paralysis. One increases damage, one offers great displacement for either an AOE stop or even for skips, and the third is a great hard CC that can even be used out of combat for skips.

Rogues have Shroud and Assassination specifically has Mass Garrote–a unique way to skip a huge portion of packs and a way to trivialize caster packs by opening with a 5 second silence.

Enhancement Shamans have Skyfury, Thunderstorm, Tremor Totem, Ancestral Guidance, Hex, Cleanse Spirit, Healing Stream Totem, Bulwark Totem, and Wind Rush totem. In other words, raid-wide mastery + windfury, a big AOE stop that works on more targets than stuns, a fear cleanse, out-of-combat hard cc, a decurse, a huge shield cooldown, a speed increase, and massive insane giga heals.

DKs bring Deathgrip, Abom’s Limb, Frostwyrm’s Fury, a battle res, and Blinding Sleet. In other words, two separate ways to group targets that are off target (unachievable by any other spec in the game), an AOE freeze, an AOE blind, and a battle res.

Ret Paladins give Devo Aura, a battle res, BOP, Bubble. That’s a 3% flat DR on the group, a battle res, a targeted physical damage cleanse + immunity, and a self-immunity that they can use to cleanse debuffs and even trivialize mechanics.

Feral Druids have Mark of the Wild, roots, Hibernate, a decurse, and a soothe.

Hunters don’t really have much besides Hunter’s Mark.

Then you have warriors. Warriors have Battle Shout, spell reflect, and Rallying Cry. 5% attack power (benefiting only physical damage classes), a reflect on subset of spells that are targeting the warrior+ some added utility for CC from certain casts and mechanics, and a raid-wide 10 second increase of max HP by 10% (in other words, about 600k hp on anyone not a tank in a season when you have bosses with dots that tick for more than 1 mil).

Given this lack of utility in comparison to these other specs, what is the role Fury is supposed to play here? Well as a DPS class, there’s really only one role that matters–damage dealt. Utility is a bonus, right? So if a class is lacking almost any valuable party- or raid-wide utility, then surely it has to make up in damage so that it provides any real value to the group.

Well, unfortunately, that just isn’t the case. Fury warriors are the lowest-performing spec in single-target DPS, and in M+ dungeons they are quite consistently falling short in overall damage in comparison to every one of these melee specs besides Feral druids.

Okay, so to recap, Fury warriors don’t have anywhere near the uniquely valuable utility that other specs have, do the lowest amount of single target damage among all these specs, and do less overall damage than a huge majority of these specs.

What role are they supposed to fill, then? What do they bring to the table that makes them valuable enough to slot into a 5-man team without making huge sacrifices in both utility and damage? For example, assume the 5% physical damage increase from shout is deemed essential-- monks provide the same increase in Mystic Touch, have a higher duration AOE stun than Shockwave, have RoP, have Paralysis, do more damage in ST, and do similar AOE damage.

For one week, we filled a distinct purpose–massive AOE burst. This has value in both raid and m+, enough so that our lack of utility and boss damage was able to be overlooked in favor of this burst.

So what’s the goal here? What’s the plan for Fury? Are we expected to just always have the least utility and least damage with no distinct role or damage profile in mind?

10 Likes

This really hasn’t been the case since Cata. You’re expected to bring a specific DPS Profile, and than a subset of utility. Utility and damage tuning aren’t things that are tied together, and are considered separate but important parts of a spec.

The utility aspect is one that Warriors have certainly struggled with, and its not a Fury only situation. Largely Warrior utility comes in the form of stops, but that has its own issues too. From Stun Diminishing Returns, to poor class tree routing that stops us from picking up our utility it can leave a lot to be desired, and that’s before we even talk about the general nerf to Stops in Mythic +.

I don’t think we really need a ton added to Warrior for our utility be more meaningful in group content (Easier access to some of our talents, Changes to Rallying Cry to be more useful in Non-Raid Content, Heroism/Bloodlust being introduced to the class) would be more than enough for our utilty to be really good.

That being said, I wouldn’t muddle your feedback about damage with complaints about utility. They’re two separate points, and you should voice both of them. Warrior struggles with utility, AND Fury’s damage profile is kind butts. If mage’s are allowed to run around with all their utility AND solid damage profile, there’s no reason we shouldn’t expect the same.

3 Likes

If anything annoys me about this season, it’s that one change right there. It really is a massive problem where so many mobs have so many spells that need to be kicked. No longer can we smoke multiple casts with an aoe stun and go about our business. That just seems so wrong in so many ways.

Even kicks have just been brutal. Waveshapers in Siege of Boralus are super guilty of this. You’ll kick their Brackish Bolt Cast, they’ll cast Watertight Shell, someone else kicks that, and than they IMMEDIATELY start casting Brackish Bolt again.

Where did my spell lockout go?

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Yeah, or worse the web bolt casts in City of Threads. Player A kicks it. Starts back up, wait- what?" Maybe this is a bug or something, but they really need to take a look at lack of lock out on a lot of casters.

I agree that they’re two separate points, but they feed into my larger point. Most specs have some form of tradeoff between damage and utility in order for them to maintain a specific role they fill. When our main role is AOE burst, it feels bad that we’re getting that nerfed without compensating us in other areas, and I’m including utility in “other areas” there.

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The Philosophy of Blizzard is they’re neglectful or outright just ignorant too the fact they have 0 idea on how to fix warriors vs people who played the class for a long time. I shouldn’t be thinking about rerolling too Frost DK just so I can actually do more stuff/be viable. I am tired of this constant cycle they keep doing too Warriors and the fact we haven’t had a decent expansion in forever in terms of Balancing. Our Tier sets almost EVERY expansion so far when it returned was utter doodoo this Season especially barely gives us a buff vs ALL the other classes with their tier sets.

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Another great feedback post, doesn’t seem they’re reading the forums lol

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The sad thing is that we had quite a fair bit of utility throughout the years but they just refuse to give it back to us and i don’t know why.

We had interupting shout, our banners, disarm, throwdown and more but they just refuse to give them back to us and i don’t know why we are desperate to get any form of utility back but nope we can’t have it so we were left with our dmg which some people said was a form of utility and thats basicly gone now for fury and arms players are now sweating like crazy because once one is hit the other isn’t normally far behind.

3 Likes

Bumping this thread up because 11.0.5 goes live today and I have yet to receive any semblance of an answer to my question.

What is going on in the development corner with warriors? Can we at least get some transparency on what the plan is for warriors in the long run? Can we get some communication on if the developers are happy with the current state of warriors? Are there no statistics they’re looking at like number of high keys done as Fury, number of players that rerolled to other classes, etc., to inform them “Hey you know what, we might be off our mark with what we want players to get out of playing this spec”?