I know there are a lot of things that need addressing with Druid but I think the one that bothers me the most is entering eclipse. I absolutely loathe casting Wraths to enter Lunar eclipse and vice versa. It’s just awkward and i think even having Eclipse “stances” would be more entertaining. Better yet, remove the whole solar side of things completely and redesign eclipse based on that.
6 Likes
We need to be freed of eclipse…
6 Likes
This is the way.
I agree with OP. If they are going to keep eclipse design a more fun way for us to enter it.
Eclipse has turned into a proverbial wall, in a class that has already traditionally had a lot of ramp. We’re not allowed to start playing the game until we have DoTs on nearly everything, then we have to get into Eclipse.
BUT WAIT, now we have to press builders for a little, okay NOW you can use your spenders. Hold on though, your Eclipse is already falling off, and so are your DoTs…. So you know, you’re going to have to do this again….
The gameplay loop of Balance Druid needs to be modernized and streamlined for the modern day. Affliction Lock is THE DoT class of WoW, and it has shown how much fun and how powerful it can be.
I personally want Balance Druid to have a “DoT” side on the left of the talent tree, and a “Builder/Spender burst” focused side on the right of the tree to add gameplay variety. Then, absolutely blow our MINDS with an Eclipse rework, or delete it from the spec. And certainly, address the fact that Balance has the defensive capabilities of wet paper. Way too much focus on going into Bear Form to survive. It’s not feasible in the modern day.
5 Likes
I think eclipse can work. The current iteration is just bad. Timed eclipse has never been fun to play around, and casting wrath to go lunar is just a hold over from pre WoD eclipse.
They could do like an eclipse power system. Starting off with casting the proper spell ofc, you start off at 50/100 lets say. Spender increase your elcipse power, which increases the bonus damage of that eclipse, with an ability to swap eclipses at an eclipse power cost. If tuned properly you never drop eclipse unless you have a good amount of downtime.
Ofc youd also have to redesign the rest of the toolkit around it because eclipse slapped on top of a generic builder/spender sucks, but thats for another post.
I’d rather just have sub specs. Lunar and Solar and have them play completely different.
4 Likes
Honestly, this sounds like an interesting idea. Make the left side of the tree the more DoT focused Solar side, and the right side of the tree the burst/spender focused Lunar side. Each side leaning more into either the Solar or Lunar theme would really differentiate these two playstyles in a visually distinct way as well.
Could be somewhat similar to Disc Priest spec tree having a Light side and a Shadow side.
1 Like
yes I don’t like spending so much time at the start of every pull applying dots, there is too much ramp time before I can start using my main damage spells (starfire and wrath).
I honestly wish we had a talent that could make the ramp time a bit more manageable.
Nature’s Grace (current): when eclipse ends or when you enter combat, enter a Dreamstate, reducing the cast time of your next 2 Starfires or Wraths by 40% and increasing their damage by 50%
Nature’s Grace (redesigned): when eclipse ends or when you enter combat, enter a Dreamstate, reducing the cast time of your next 3 Starfires or Wraths by 50% and these Starfires will apply Moonfire and Wraths will apply Sunfire
I woulnt go the DoT route for solar. However, id replace starfall with hurricane. It can work the same exact way starfall does now, just be visually different. Move the splash damage to wrath and make stafire have increased crit or something.
I think solar makes way more sense thematically as the AoE eclipse. Hurricane, shrooms, AoE sunfire. You could even bring back insect swarm as a an AoE coutnerpart to stellar flare. Give us back treants that dont suck and we have a pretty cool nature toolkit for solar eclipse.
This is what I’ve been saying… since this iteration of Eclipse became a thing. It makes me MISS Empowerments, and how ‘weighty’ the rotation felt to me at the start of BfA. We actually had more agency over the rotation, and the spells flowed better together. Of course, tuning has a lot to do with it as well, but the mechanics, the core of how the toolkit flows together is, obviously, the biggest key to it being cohesive and fun.
What I’ve suggested is a new version of Empowerments, because it’s ‘Starsurge First’ (and not JUST for making sure we don’t overcap – and IMO we don’t need that much Resource generation anyhow) that made the spec (again, to me) feel a WHOLE lot better than having to ramp up 4-5 spells/GCDs (just on one target!!) only to be able to then start ‘bursting’ as it has been since DF.
I think the 11.0.5 changes are a step in the right direction for both Starsurge and Starfall-focused builds, but I still think there’s a long way to go… Either let us Choose our core mechanic from throughout Balance’s history… Or, introducing something akin to my ‘Empowerments 2.0’ idea (Where you Starsurge and get 3 stacks to spend on Wrath OR Starfire and then summon a Crashing Star with an effect based on the school of magic – suggested before the latter became a talent btw lol)… Or, alternatively, a quicker or more intuitively activated and a shorter version of Eclipse. For now, quicker fixes would be to buff things like Nature’s Grace, Owlkin Frenzy/Adept and Warrior of Elune - Not in their damage, but in the ease of access to getting to and from Eclipse states.
Every spec, obviously, feels better when the player has more agency with a cohesive toolkit. For Balance Druid, specifically, I think we need to be slightly slower but deliver more ‘weight’, more damage with individual spells.
I like the idea of quicker DoTs that “burn” with additional effects – so I like the whole left side of the talent tree come 11.0.5… Still, though, that doesn’t solve the Eclipse problem. The ramp-up and lock-in are still there, even if they’re slightly less cumbersome to access.
“Spamming noodles” does not feel fun or rewarding. Especially Starsurge. IMO it was much better when you could only ever pool two, but they were DEVASTATING. Counter-intuitively, I’d say, it’s BECAUSE of how fast paced the gameplay has become. In PvP, at least, it feels far better to be able to get out a meaningful spell, rather than being locked in to “spam this spell” windows, which, if shut down (especially when using cooldowns) – then it feels like the whole momentum is gone and has be restarted with 5 GCDs to even get it going again… And I’d say it’s the same for PvE. What if you just line up all your burst ramps, “align all the stars”, and just then the boss flies away? 
Casting time, or spending resources, should reward with more meaningful damage (or healing, I’d argue the same for our off-healing feeling far worse since the DF Hybrid healing change – having to spam battle-turning abilities is also outdated and weak compared to most specs now, which can deliver instant burst on demand, and have some form of immunity… or at least better recovery than we do, ironically. We’re supposed to be the versatile class lol).
1 Like
That is my preference too, and with the current hero talents they could easily split it into Elune’s Chosen for lunar and Keeper of the Grove as solar.
Just remove eclipse altogether or have it as a temp buff like Tiger’s Fury so you go in and out of it naturally, and play around it that way, with changes to what spells you prioritize inside and outside an eclipse (but not alternating like a yoyo, it is either lunar or solar based on your spec). Would love to see Keeper of the Grove just focus on sun and plant spells.
The Sunfire procced mushrooms was a step in the right direction, but it’s still diluted by all the moon and astral shenanigans going on. The entangling roots spell effect is grossly wasted on a spell with such limited use outside of PvP, would make for a cool plant themed DoT, maybe as an alternate ST spender for solar side, with mushroom explosions as the AoE. And bring back thorns, reactive damage we can put on the tank.
Also Moonfire needs to get the Shadowpriest / Warlock treatment and just be applied in an AoE. Just make Full Moon / Fury of Elune apply it in an AoE.
I hear you but that’s pretty much what we already have now. You kind of described what we have currently.
Which is fine and I’m okay with that, but the fact of the matter is the Eclipse mechanic is horrible and if it was deleted from Balance tomorrow, I don’t think anyone would care even slightly. I think that’s the crux of this whole thing. Eclipse is outdated and they could never get it to work expansion after expansion. Especially when Balance became a builder/spender style class. Eclipse being there feels like a relic now. It should just go.
After Eclipse is gone, then they can finally redesign Balance to play better and add actually fun build variety into the tree, with focuses on which spells you want to empower through talents to suit your playstyle. Eclipse mechanic is shackling the spec.
1 Like
yeah i dont like eclipse at all, balance overall doesnt do much for me and eclipse really puts me off of it. often by the time i have dots applied (why does moonfire only apply to 2 at a time? makes it almost unusable in large pulls) and have started my eclipse going on trash pulls the group is already moving on to the next pack. the wind up time makes the spec almost unplayable in general dungeon content lower than mythic, it just takes too long and the fights are too fast.
having to cast 2 single target wraths just to empower starfire and start your aoe spells is obscenely clunky. compared to say my elemental shaman it is just absurd, unrewarding, and dull. you have to claw your way through a solid 6 seconds of clunk to even start your rotation applying dots and preparing your eclipse, and then the reward is spamming a single spell button over and over and over again. and we’re not talking spells with exciting graphics and sound effects like a chain lightning or chaos bolt. the balance spell effects, sound effects, and particles are all very limp and underwhelming apart from fury of elune which is legitimately cool.
i also know this may not be an opinion shared by all but i hate having to choose between the incredibly dumb giant chicken nugget mascot skin or a glyph that makes my transmog impossible to see and hides my character behind a semi transparent psuedo shadowform effect. they both look terrible. i would love a glyph to just hide boomkin form without having to obscure my character behind a sparkly blue and purple curtain of fart.
4 Likes
Sorry i forgot to mention id scrap AP. Go back to WoD sytle charges with our current spenders sharing charges, shooting stars procing free charges. Give us something to actually react to. The more “spenders” you cast the deeper into eclipse you go.
Eclipse can work as a good central mechanic of the spec. Tbh i miss my cata/MoP boomie.
What we’ve had from BFA on is a gutted Legion boomie, a boring builder/spender. and from SL on the worst implementation of eclipse to date replaced empowerments and they moved mastery from empowerments/eclipse to our DoTs which just made the spec play even worse. The AP builder spender was 100% dependent on the artifact abilities. Without it its exposed as poorly designed boring spec.
Agree to disagree here sorry. I hated the fact that the Eclipse system used to basically tick tock back and forth on its own. It took away player agency as far as which spell you wanted to cast, and especially wouldn’t work today since you have to cast certain spells specifically in the modern day for single target or AoE situations.
I thought the tick tocking, sliding up and down Eclipse was extremely gimmicky and really not fun. It got old really fast. I prefer to have complete control of my class.
Which brings me to my next disagreement, I actually like AP and it offers a satisfyingly predictable payoff to using your builder spells. I think the builder/spender playstyle is fun personally. The spec can feel “too predictable” at times which can make everything feel boring and stagnant, which is why I hope talents like Starweaver and Touch of the Cosmos, and hopefully more little (optional) procs are added to spice up the spec.
I hold firm that Eclipse can never go back to any iteration it used to be in the past at this point. While some people maybe have nostalgia for how Balance used to play back in the day, it makes no sense to step backwards. The spec needs to be modernized on the whole to catch up with every other spec— not return to some iteration from the past.
2 Likes
That was only in WoD, in MoP and cata you cycled by casting, no timer involved.
Sure, if this was Legion I’d agree with you. Boomie has felt like complete garbage from BFA on. Its nothing more than a shell of what Legion boomie was, with some random “greatest hits” of boomkin’s past slapped on top of it with no thought put into making a cohesive spec. Hell, it seems like half of our talents contradict each other. ATM its probably the least satisfying spec in the game, and the least satisfying iteration of boomie since at least cata. I cant speak to WotLK and earlier boomie because i didn’t play one until cata.
Never said we should go back to a past iteration of eclipse, or forced cycling between eclipses. I also don’t like eclipse on a timer, I didn’t like in WoD and I don’t like it now.
Sure it does, because everything they’ve done to boomie for the last 6 years is a fireable offense imo. Who ever said eclipse can’t be modernized and actually fun to play around? You say you want a modern spec but also say you like the boring generic AP builder spender that almost every spec in this game is based on. Revamping and modernizing eclipse can be something that makes boomie actually unique and fun to play, not boring garbage where i just spam starfire followed by 2 wraths every 15 seconds.
1 Like
It was still tick tocking regardless. I never said Eclipse was automatic in every single iteration. I thought you would understand what I meant but I guess I have to explain further. Push a bar up to one side, then back to the other side like a pendulum over and over was not fun gameplay. It was gimmicky. You can say the spec feels unique with Eclipse but at what cost? In the modern day, the current and any previous incarnations of Eclipse will always suffocate the spec with ramp.
That’s because Legion (and Shadowlands) Boomkin felt good due to the fact our spells actually had punch and spenders did noticeable damage. Somewhere down the line they decided to turn Balance from BOOMkin… to RoTkin. Much damage is done with starting ramp then trickling over time with our DoTs, while spenders are toned down to preserve overall DPS balance. It feels horrible. Spenders used to do big numbers on the screen.
Like I said, agree to disagree on the AP builder/spender part being boring. I said I love how it feels for the spec, and I already explained why.
As far as modernizing Eclipse? Fine we can modernize it, but I won’t discuss returning to any older mechanical styles from past expansions for it. They could literally never even settle on an iteration for it many times through expansions.
They have shown what they can do with current Affliction Warlocks (THE DoT class of WoW) and also another builder/spender spec in Elemental Shaman. These specs have elements of Balance Druid in them without the shackles of Eclipse, and they play wonderfully in the modern day game.
If you want to return to the days where Starsurge and Starfall were on long CDs and we didn’t have Astral Power that’s on you. To me that feels like you’re taking control away from my gameplay. I would not find that fun at all. And before you say anything about “well just add CDR for them” I hate CDR and we already have that with Hero Talents as it is with Full Moon/Fury of Elune which is enough for me.
Eclipse should be retired from the spec, or made so passive that it’s a flavor boost in the background. Where Solar and Lunar Eclipses each give you some small amount of either crit or haste or something.
2 Likes
No need. You said tick tock on it’s own i assumed you were talking about WoD eclipse.
Agreed, Full Moon was probably the most satisfying part of Legion Boomie. Now its not even worth taking because they decided to make it choice node with FoE. and I absolutely HATE that mastery is tied to DoTs. Literally nobody asked for it. As far as satisfaction goes though, for me its hard to top that chain of Starsurge procs which all hit like trucks in MoP.
I don’t disagree. The only thing I like about eclipse in DF/TWW is you don’t have to cycle, which was the biggest complaint about previous iterations, and to be clear I don’t want cycling back. You can choose which eclipse you’re in, but they didn’t do anything with that. They just slapped a timer on top of the AP builder/spender. They had an opportunity to make the eclipses more visually and thematically distinct. It would be nice to have one more AoE focused eclipse and a more ST eclipse. Have some interactions between our abilities that actually make sense, both gameplay-wise and thematically. Have the ability to swap eclipses when necessary.
And I agree with you on ele and affliction, they both play really well. But historically, Eclipse is the mechanic that does make us a unique spec. Don’t just make us celestial ele shamans, make us something unique and fun. Hell its even in the name of our spec, its about the balance between nature and arcane. You gotta give a space for both our nature and arcane abilities to thrive.
That being said, I think we can both agree Boomie is in a tough spot. Right now were being pulled in 3 directions. Are we a builder/spender? A DoT spec? Or are we something else designed around eclipse? Nobody knows, not even blizz. We have a tree full of contradictory talents that make choose one of the 3 but also choose all of the 3 simultaneously, and we have to make sacrifices and choices no other class/spec has to make. I’m sorry but bear form where I do zero damage is not a defensive. Having to choose between my main AoE ability and a capstone because I chose KotG is unacceptable. For the love of god just pick a direction, build a good cohesive spec around it, and stick with it.
3 Likes
Though we may disagree on how we get to a good place with the spec, at least all Druid players can agree there are obvious problems, and we need to come to some sort of a happy conclusion already. Modernizing and catching the class up to everyone else. I do agree with 90% of the problems you point out.
From reading the Druid forums and beta feedback, I think Blizzard should have a very good idea of what the class is suffering with… if they didn’t realize it already. It’s ultimately up to them to figure out the best course of action here, and I just hope whatever conclusions and solutions they bring to the class (and Balance spec especially) end up feeling cohesive and contribute to a modern and fluid gameplay experience.
The fact that Balance spec feels like it’s fighting with itself on how it wants to be played is one of the most obvious cries for help in a class I’ve seen in the game. Really hoping for more discernible build variety in the talent tree and mechanics that don’t actively work against other ones for sure.
1 Like
I just had an idea that might make Eclipse more manageable and allows it to remain in the spec for flavor while still retaining a gameplay changing element. I’m open to feedback if there are potential issues with this idea.
What if Eclipse lasted indefinitely (removing the 15-second limit)? Then, casting Wrath meant you enter a Solar Eclipse, while casting Starfire entered you into a Lunar Eclipse. The requirement to enter an Eclipse of either school would be ONE spell cast of a filler/builder ability. Not 2 like it is now.
To activate Eclipse, you would cast ONE spell from the school of magic you want to enter Eclipse into. For example, casting 1 Wrath would activate Solar Eclipse. (Yes, you read that right. Casting a Solar spell i.e. Wrath, you will enter a Solar Eclipse.) Once activated, Solar Eclipse would last indefinitely. If you wanted to switch to Lunar Eclipse, you would cast 1 Starfire (and thusly enter a Lunar Eclipse), and the Lunar Eclipse would then last indefinitely as well.
This way, you could switch between Eclipses freely without being constrained by the current 15-second time limit. This could eliminate the frustration of dealing with such short windows to do basically everything inside of. Ideally, the Eclipses would remain active out of combat and when entering into combat in an effort to retain fluidity.
1 Like