Can ret be toned down already?

[Numb-staghelm]

But ret actually does need toning down.

[Kasius-tichondrius]

@Fylerz-blackhand

Shadowlands:
Ringing Clarity from 3 to 2 extra judge.
Ringing Clarity judgement’s extra damage reduced by 25%.
Divine Toll damage extra damage reduced by 25%
Final Reckoning direct damage reduced by 15%
Final Reckoning debuff reduced from 50% extra dam on spender to 30%.
Judgement debuff from 25% to 15%
Healing Hands from 100% to 50%
WoG got nerfed by 30%, then an extra 10%.
Aura of Reckoning melee hit damage reduced from 250 to 200%

BFA nerfs that are still applied:
Righteous Verdict from 15% to 8%
Divine purpose extra damage from 20% to 10%
Templar’s Verdict and Wake are still nerfed by 25% in pvp from BFA.

And yes with all these nerfs, ret still good because it synergize so well with warriors kit, and necro banner. But also scale godly with some stuff like Pelagos Mastery or 6% dam increase from necro hammer from kevin. 6% adds up with everything else going on. It’s the first expansion they let ret be good in pvp since forever not gonna lie.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/938982743612743704/950088379767341176/unknown.png

All this and you guys still do absurd damage damage because the entire spec is “increases damage taken by 20% damage” on damn near every talent and ability lol.

Legit got hit by a 40k Final Verdict last night on my shaman and was honestly not even surprised

[Cutîepie-kelthuzad (Cutîepie)]

I mean you just told me they nerfed divine toll and final reckoning exactly what I already mentioned, the only thing they did was to remove the consistent oneshot bs at the start of the xpac.

divine toll right now can still oneshot people if you roll the dices right or no one is in range, because judgements easily can hit up to 20k. But thats just a cherry on top of 30k+ verdicts. ret right now is what I could imagine windwalker would be if your images were immune to cc.

One good first step would be to make Disarm actually matter again against ret

[Shucks-bloodscalp]

@Sëräph-moon-guard

both specs suck

ret and ww both suck?

@Doors-illidan

There’s also multiple classes that can just instantly get rid of their major defensives.

there are in fact 0 classes that can get rid of bubble instantly, though fast md talent is silly enough to be close

@Doors-illidan

They get a few seconds of damage every 2 minutes, outside of that they hit like newborn babies blowing out birthday candles. They have the most obvious damage window in the game

none of that is accurate. a baker’s dozen popular specs in the game have damage models designed to land lots of little attacks constantly and enough of them will naturally crit that wings is proccing all the time

@Doors-illidan

garbage mobility–it’s super, super kite/CCable

are you sure you’re talking about 8 seconds of unbreakable 130% movement speed? cuz without equally stupid crap like frenzy clone, there’s no casted cc in the game you can pinch off on a ret with freedom that will land in the time between it entering the range of the cast and it getting to you to kick the cast. and it’s pathetically easy to die to the couple of gcds a ret team will do to you if you try to juke through that

@Doors-illidan

Their healing just took a huge nerf

that’s real weird cuz they’re still hitting 20k wogs in the 25-90% of the game that wings is up

[Tpbucs-sargeras]

@Cutîepie-kelthuzad

besides divine toll and this aoe oneshot talent (which still works) there hasnt been any relevant nerfs for ret yet, in fact ret still oneshots you in warstomp and double ret is something you actually face quite often, at least on EU queues at high rating.

EU PU DansGame

[Doors-illidan]

Basically a response list full of arbitrary semantics.

[Ragyo-moknathal]

Next expac we will farm rets and MM hunters

[Rethumtv-tichondrius (Rethumtv)]

You forgot that they nerfed execution sentence so hard it’s no longer a viable talent.

[Xelonith-malganis]

ok lets not act like ret is bad rn

[Fjikaz-herod]

I don’t think any of the rets in here think the current state of ret is bad at all. We just don’t want to be nerf to oblivion and put in the dumpster like the last few expansions.

[Shucks-bloodscalp]

i think that’s pretty unfair, the only semantic point was about whether or not md is instant. shattering throw sure isn’t

there’s an important difference between specific and arbitrary. i bothered going into specifics because i believe a majority of the playerbase has experiences playing against ret that differ from the ones you describe, and if a contention does represent what a majority of people would call true, i think it’s definitionally not “arbitrary”. 2+2 is not “arbitrarily” 4

[Fylerz-blackhand]

I’m not defending it.

But every class in the game is like that in shadowlands. And its stupid. How abilities that hits for 5k normally can crit up to 30k with CDs.

Its the peak design fails about recent expansions. They keep adding damage or healing increase on top of damage or healing increase.

I just prefered when the base damage of classes were high and burst cooldown werent overpowered, or only had one.

Right now like Ret, Sub, Firemage, Arms, WW and everyone else has way too much ways to stack damage modifiers on top of each other.

@Cutîepie-kelthuzad

One good first step would be to make Disarm actually matter again against ret

It is if they’re Necro currently. Because Necro has to run the double charge of the necro ability, but once double lego are available, you’ll see necro with Final Verdict aswell. And it will completely outscale Kyrian viability (which it already does right now).

@Rethumtv-tichondrius

You forgot that they nerfed execution sentence so hard it’s no longer a viable talent.

That was during prepatch, that’s why I havent spoken about it

[Tpbucs-sargeras]

@Sëräph-moon-guard

Imagine any of you defending Ret because monk lol.

It’s a hard counter to monk.

Also both specs suck, ret is just consistently better than WW right now. Git gud

ret is a hard counter to WW??? on what planet lol!!

[Shucks-bloodscalp]

the damage itself and the modifier stacking phenomenon are the natural evolution of the mobility arms race. for the ranged players who enjoy kiting to be able to play the game that way(which they have for as long as neanderthals have been using tools because 40 yard range>5 yard range), melee have to be brutally punishing when they connect

BUT, for healer players to get the gameplay they like, the base damage of a spec has to feel easy to heal through if your dps can’t or won’t play the kiting game. so that brutal punishment comes from cooldowns

i think the only way they can fix it is by repairing the relationship between the damage/healing balance and health. one thing that glares from classic pvp to retail is that it’s really hard to get 100-0d, but it’s really hard to get 0-100d as well. cooldowns were much rarer and much longer, but it also seems like actually connecting even baseline damage to any target was something of a hard proposition

[Tpbucs-sargeras]

@Orkmonk-tichondrius

Tired of this spec.

im maining ret this season and its one of the easiest classes to kite and to cc in general . if im facing a dh/rdruid and or a hunter/rdruid in 2s i pretty much just afk out cause i know ill just get kited until my healer is oom . ALSO wog was nerfed yet again as well as most of our burst. not sure what patch of wow youre playing but yeah ret is already “toned down.”

[Kasius-tichondrius]

Ret takes the buffoonery to whole nother level tho. Sub and MM do too but Ret’s skeleton is just modifier after modifier after modifier.

I don’t think any other spec has multiple talents and abilities that are legit -50% mods in PvP and the spec still manages to do 2/3rds of someones HP in a single swing.

@Rethumtv-tichondrius

You forgot that they nerfed execution sentence so hard it’s no longer a viable talent.

Like I hardly doubt its not viable at all, it just doesn’t completely erase someone 100-0 like it did in BFA with x3 Avenger’s Might and it’s early SL iteration was gross too.

I don’t think they can do anything to ret so long as it has everything doing +20% here and +30 % there while having on demand +20% damage + 20% crit. The numbers will always be goofy when you add externals

[Sëräph-moon-guard]

Ret sucks, has a gimp one shot thats easily avoidable. Bad gameplay.

WW is also dog. If you die to a WW without crazy RNG happening then you’re just bad, the world needs to line up for any WW to do anything considering THEY HAVE THE WORST DEFENSIVES IN THE GAME AND CANT INSTACAST HEALS LIKE OTHER HYBRIDS but hey. Sounds like you guys gotta git gud still.

[Shucks-bloodscalp]

@Sëräph-moon-guard

Ret sucks, has a gimp one shot thats easily avoidable. Bad gameplay.

WW is also dog. If you die to a WW without crazy RNG happening then you’re just bad, the world needs to line up for any WW to do anything considering THEY HAVE THE WORST DEFENSIVES IN THE GAME AND CANT INSTACAST HEALS LIKE OTHER HYBRIDS but hey. Sounds like you guys gotta git gud still

this has gotta be performance art

[Sëräph-moon-guard]

Must suck to hear it from someone who’s played the spec since its release amirite.

Next season broski.

[Doors-illidan]

@Shucks-bloodscalp

i think that’s pretty unfair

Probably was unfair. I was pretty busy, so skimmed over most of it and it basically read like ‘yeah, but…’ and decided we were arguing opinion at that point. So if I read you wrong, my bad.

That said, ultimately, I think Ret Paladins are a one trick class like covoke feral, and aren’t really the craziest thing out there to deal with. Not that they can’t kill you, but it’s just such a well-known, and obvious class that even noobs like me are able to make plays against them and waste a huge chunk of their damage window a lot of the time.

So, 3 seasons later when I still see people making ‘pls nerf’ threads (after a gambit of nerfs since S1 anyway) I’ve got to ask myself, ‘is this still where we’re at?’ Because I can tell you that Ret is the lowest melee on my radar, and I’m the one who has to heal their damage. Lol