Can pally tanks be viable as MT in raids?

[Werkudara-faerlina]

Yea that makes sense tanking mag has been pretty difficult. The amount of total mitigation I could muster atm is still below 65% without shield block. No luck on tanking gear at farming hcs and karazhan, The cleave was especially brutal at mag yeah that explains alot

[Fasc-atiesh]

Yeah he hits like a truck and between the melee hits and cleave, he can eat through everything quite easily and if the melee is a Crushing Blow you just drop.

[Corpseten-runetotem (Corpseten)]

@Dadyblasblas-mankrik

Holy Shield is not supposed to be able to be removed from incoming attacks at all (that’s never how it worked).

Holy Shield has an ICD that works the same way Lightning Shield does. It can’t trigger multiple times within 1 second. Afaik, the ICD is supposed to be 1.5 seconds, meaning Holy Shield can never drop before it’s duration ends.

Pretty sure it doesn’t and never has had an ICD.

@Fasc-atiesh

Even Gruul hits fast enough to slip a 3rd hit in per Shield Block CD. Magtheridon has his Cleave as well.

Mag’s Cleave replaces his auto attack. Regardless, just like every boss with a base 2.0 speed swing, there will be windows in which a 3rd melee attack slips into those 5 seconds.

@Valarkin-pagle

The only difference in SBR between Redoubt and HS when they are up is the Libram, which adds 5.31% to HS…only when HS is actually up.

Yeah. In the situation where Redoubt is up but Holy Shield isn’t, Redoubt still pushes off most (or all, depending on avoidance/block numbers) of the crushes that would’ve landed.

@Werkudara-faerlina

Yea that makes sense tanking mag has been pretty difficult. The amount of total mitigation I could muster atm is still below 65% without shield block. No luck on tanking gear at farming hcs and karazhan, The cleave was especially brutal at mag yeah that explains alot

Full defensive gear + HP flask + chain-chugging Ironshields + Affliction Warlock (5% physical damage mit) and Blood Pact buff + Demo Shout should be enough.

Mag, after P1 is over, is a very straightforward fight. There’s little difficulty numbers-wise aside from keeping the tank alive, and little difficulty strategy-wise aside from coordinating clickers.

[Werkudara-faerlina]

Yeah I was being cheap at mags didn’t have ironshield and we are casual guild without affliction warlock for cow, and I am pretty casual player as well only log for 1-2hrs everyday save for raid nights. I have full pre bis threat set but not on mitigation set. But I do have badges items like trinket and shield for extra threat since I am mainly switching between OT duties and arms. Our MT has really good stam gear but doesn’t have threat set and mitigation set, so yeah…

[Valarkin-pagle]

@Corpseten-runetotem

Full defensive gear + HP flask + chain-chugging Ironshields + Affliction Warlock (5% physical damage mit) and Blood Pact buff + Demo Shout should be enough.

Also Werk try and get Dev Aura in group if you can.

Additionally have either a Priest or Shaman with Inspiration or Ancestral helping to heal you.

(Ironshield + Dev Aura) * Inspiration/Ancestral = ~3800 AC.

That should help with any mitigation issues your having.

[Dadyblasblas-mankrik]

@Corpseten-runetotem

Pretty sure it doesn’t and never has had an ICD.

You’re right afaik.

I was told by a reliable source that it did have an ICD at one point.

Either way, I can’t find any proof that it worked that way in TBC.

[Werkudara-faerlina]

Yea sure, I’ll definitely try it

Thanks

[Fasc-atiesh]

@Corpseten-runetotem

Mag’s Cleave replaces his auto attack.

…does it?

https://tbc.wowhead.com/spell=30619/cleave

“Next Melee”

Learned something new today. So literally all Mag does is slowly chip at you with big fat swings and sometimes it is a Cleave that hits a bit harder.

@Corpseten-runetotem

Regardless, just like every boss with a base 2.0 speed swing, there will be windows in which a 3rd melee attack slips into those 5 seconds.

Yup!

[Alethos-sulfuras]

At the end of P1, all tanks are pretty balanced.
Some are somewhat easier to gear.

If Druid is considered 100 as a MT, Warrior would be a 98 and Pally a 96. There’s really that little of a difference.

[Growlingbear-earthfury]

it’s not. sunwell does have an mob aura put in specifically for druid tanks tho because the dodge was so high.

[Growlingbear-earthfury]

@Dadyblasblas-mankrik

I may be wrong

you are wrong. No ICD

[Seeder-thunderfury]

@Amideus-anathema

Uh no? Top 5 fastest Gruul kills on Warcraft logs:

1 Old School: Prot Warrior Main Tank
2 Noobs AOT Alliance: Prot Warrior Main Tank w/ Prot Paladin off
3 Umeplay: Feral Druid Main Tank
4 CN United: Prot Warrior Main Tank
5 Эксодус: Feral Druid Main Tank

Prot Warriors are represented as Main Tanks in three of the top 5 fastest Gruuls kills.

Magtheridon top 5 fastest kills:

1 Noobs AOT Alliance: Prot Paladin Main Tank
2 Umeplay: Feral Druid Main Tank
3 Old School: Prot Warrior Main Tank
4 crispy: Prot Warrior Main Tank
5 Reign: Prot Warrior Main Tank

3/5 again for Prot Warrior.

That didn’t take long to prove you don’t know what you are talking about

Spotted the warrior alt.

Early on of course more of those guilds went in with their already geared and established warrior tanks. There was also some inertia to overcome. If you look at the logs over time you see the shift to more and more druids and pallies.

Dad guilds are still going to use warrior tanks but warrior tanks will be a dying breed in higher performing raids.

By the time BT hits you might see prot warriors for early attempts at Illidan, but even that is a maybe. They’ll just have a pally do it. ROS deaden will be reflected by a DPS warrior who momentarily equips a shield.

[Amideus-anathema]

@Seeder-thunderfury

Spotted the warrior alt.

My alt is a paladin, prot. Let’s stay focused on the points and not try and just dismiss people’s posts because you don’t like them.

@Seeder-thunderfury

Early on of course more of those guilds went in with their already geared and established warrior tanks. There was also some inertia to overcome. If you look at the logs over time you see the shift to more and more druids and pallies.

The trends aren’t really showing this. I mean, mag’s is getting more paladins but Mags is a fight that specifically caters to paladins as well. And even with that, there’s still warriors on top.

@Seeder-thunderfury

Dad guilds are still going to use warrior tanks but warrior tanks will be a dying breed in higher performing raids.

There’s nothing that suggests warriors will not be brought to high performance raids. They are tanking them now, and will likely continue to tank them in SSC and TK. You’ve not really provided much evidence to support this position other than your feelings on the matter.

@Seeder-thunderfury

By the time BT hits you might see prot warriors for early attempts at Illidan, but even that is a maybe. They’ll just have a pally do it. ROS deaden will be reflected by a DPS warrior who momentarily equips a shield.

Again, there’s absolutely zero evidence of this other than conjecture. I don’t understand why people who will never see the inside of an actual hardcore guild are in here trying to explain what the top 1% of all guilds MIGHT be doing in the future and getting it wrong.

[Valarkin-pagle]

@Amideus-anathema

The trends aren’t really showing this. I mean, mag’s is getting more paladins but Mags is a fight that specifically caters to paladins as well. And even with that, there’s still warriors on top.

I get what your trying to say.

However it’s still early enough on Gruul where Paladins are freshly uncrushable, and haven’t had the chance in some cases to ramp up EH levels.

If you look at Paladins on Gruul almost all of them don’t have 4pc set bonus…and both bonuses are DPS and TPS bonuses. They are short 200 or more spellpower and missing at least the Holy Shield damage buff.

They rarely if ever have a mageblade…because threat at this stage in Tier 4 if fine for all tanks so DPS classes have priority for speed clears.

Tier 4 is an acclimation Tier for Paladins to reach uncrush, uncrit, stack SP, and bolster avoidance. It’s only temporary, but Warriors don’t have such a specific list to pursue, and as a result have a bit of a head start.

By end of Tier 4 Paladin’s will have nearly 300 more SP than they do now on those parses. However with threat being fine atm, they have other priorities to flesh out.

Paladins will dominate Mag and do very well on prince once geared. They aren’t the best tank for Gruul, but they can do it without issue if needed.

[Amideus-anathema]

@Valarkin-pagle

However it’s still early enough on Gruul where Paladins are freshly uncrushable, and haven’t had the chance in some cases to ramp up EH levels.

Yea but we’re not talking about most paladins here, we’re talking about the sweatiest of the sweaty. His specific argument is that paladins and druids in the top 1% of all guilds are going to be the only tanks and no one will run warriors in those groups or guilds, which is just an absurd claim.

And the other flip side of that, is that the same gearing issue exists with the warriors too. And warriors get more threat and power from gear as well. So the “they don’t have the gear” argument kind of falls flat when everyone gets better with gear.

[Brëëzy-illidan]

This game is incredibly easy. You can do whatever the hell you want and make it through. Will a guild let you? Probably not usually

Could you make your own guild and MT as a pally and clear the Sunwell? I’m sure you could

[Psykh-benediction]

This is the autism that ruins classic.

Take whoever shows up consistently

[Kumasama-westfall]

This post was made 12 days ago?

[Valarkin-pagle]

@Amideus-anathema

Yea but we’re not talking about most paladins here, we’re talking about the sweatiest of the sweaty.

Yes, but they are in the sweatiest of guilds…with loot priorities that reflect that.

All three tanks currently have no issues with threat on a boss.

So what’s the point of giving a Mageblade or a Mag’s eye to a Paladin for “some” extra dps…when you can give it to a pure DPS for better results atm.

Paladin gear has an order to it, because they just can’t put on anything and have it work. To start swapping in Tier 4 you need Badge Helm, Badge Libram, Devil shark, and at least a +Def/Dodge ring. And 4 piece Tier 4 requires the previous swaps…which is what allows double trinket use at all.

Paladins will get there, but it takes time to acquire gear, in a specific order, some of which they may already have, but it’s bagged until it’s ideal to use it.

@Amideus-anathema

And warriors get more threat and power from gear as well. So the “they don’t have the gear” argument kind of falls flat when everyone gets better with gear.

This is where we disagree.

Warriors reach uncrit and uncrush very easily, and can basically wear whatever they want. That same low yardstick of gear requirement is what allows them to swap in threat stats while still maintaining uncrit/uncrush.

Paladins have 30% HS, not 75% Shield Block. More effort has to be expended on tankability in regards to item budget levels. Once a Paladin has gear near the end of Tier 4 it will never be an issue again. However for a Paladin the order is:

490 Defense
102.4% total avoidance (66.1% prior to buffs, Libram + HS)
EH levels appropriate to content.
Lastly threat, ie +spellpower.

Warriors stack EH driven +Def gear from day 1 and before even reaching Heroics have reached uncrit/uncrush.

Gear doesn’t need to be specific, moreover there are plenty of options to choose from.

For a Paladin those options are boots, wrist, belt, which epic faction weapon will you pursue, and is your Sha’tar faction high enough to get the shield or do you need to spend badges on it. That’s it.

[Riger-arugal]

One advantage a Warrior has, that often gets brushed aside but shouldn’t, is that Warriors can become uncritable in PVP gear without sacrificing uncrushability.

All the pros and cons of Imp Shield Block vs Imp Holy Shield not withstanding, this is a decent advantage. It allows Warriors to stay ahead of Pallys on EH into the next tier in spite of scaling issues.

The obvious downside (for some) is that Warrior Tanks need to PVP, a lot, and PVP well to keep up in later tiers.

@Kumasama-westfall

This post was made 12 days ago?

Phew, that’s a relief! For a minute there I thought no-one was going to police thread duration! /Sarcasm.