Calia needs to die

Yeah, and I did, hence me mentioning Godfrey. He’s just the only one that came to mind because he was mentioned upthread. :stuck_out_tongue:

I really didn’t like the story shift from the forsaken loathing their fate to inflicting it on others. I know even in vanilla, sympathy for them was incredibly limited because of the darker stuff they were doing, but the hypocritical twist in them inflicting it on others annoyed the hell out of me.

It’s why I liked Zelling’s story, because it turned necromancy on its head into a sort of faustian bargain where the guy was willing to pay any price for his family, and the cost WAS his family.

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I agree wholeheartedly. While there wasn’t a lot of good (or any) storytelling in Vanilla, I always did like this lingering thought that the Forsaken’s story was always meant to be twofold:

a.) Trying to deal with their trauma and processing it while living in a world hostile to them

b.) Worrying about their faction collapsing from lack of numbers whenever any Forsaken ends up dying on the battlefield or elsewhere.

It gave more gravitas when a Forsaken would sacrifice themselves for the Horde or even other Forsaken. But they never came across like, “Yessssss let’s inflict our trauma that defines us onto other people because WE ARE EVIL!” Even the most morally grey parts of their faction, the Royal Apothecary Society, was focused less on just being evil but doing potentially evil things for a goal of stopping the Lich King.

That was until Cataclysm came around and Blizzard forgot about point a when going forward with their story and only focused on point b.

As I said I really, really liked Zelling because it was a good example of how he was going to die no matter what but ended up choosing to become a Forsaken to continue to try and help his family. And unlike the Night Elf Forsaken (Which they still continue to make up stuff on the spot about why this or that happened), you see Zelling struggle with his old life vs his new one and where his morality now lies.

THAT is what could be interesting about the Forsaken. And it has more of a chance now than ever now that Sylvanas isn’t absorbing all of the “Forsaken Lore” that gets created in this franchise.

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So you think a character like Sylvanas would willingly stand aside and give up power?
Or even entertain someone who has the potential to usurp her politically? A living human? Arthas’ sister?

Yeah… easier to just jump off the bridge.

And as I mentioned she had ZERO power over Varian. Jaina is orders if magnitude more powerful compared to Calia and she couldnt stop him.

I’m probably just projecting my frustrations but I kinda want to blame the worgens’ addition to the game because Blizzard wanted a zombies VS werewolves thing. Cata was ramping up the faction war and Gilneas was the easiest target for the forsaken to be written to push a new group into the opposing faction.

I feel like it had a side effect of also neutering the whole “the alliance are prejudiced against us because we’re monsters” because now between the worgen and draenei, the alliance started accepting monsters of their own and that no longer became a valid motivation like it used to be in vanilla.

Perhaps but I still think the fault is mostly the direction they chose to write Sylvanas after her main motivation was complete.

I actually liked that the Blood Elves and the Draenei joined their respective factions. I liked them progressing past the prejudices established in Vanilla. And even moreso with the Worgen for the Alliance. It showed a progression of ideals in the game in an abstract but still understandable and concrete way.

I don’t want both factions just stuck in a time loop of repeating what they were 17 years ago in Vanilla.

You won’t find me defending the end of the Worgen/Forsaken story though. At least for the Alliance, they just don’t get a conclusion.

Maybe, but I feel like it yanked the rug out of what made the WC3 / early WoW horde compelling to begin with, that you could play a good monster. I had an interaction with someone else on this forum (Zerde, I think?) who basically dropped one of my own lines back at me, using worgen as the example of “it’s how you act, not how you look” because between Cata, MoP, and BFA, the horde became monsters due to their actions and thematically devolved them into just being the ugly bad guys. And if you still want that original horde appeal, welp; gotta look to the alliance races for it now. :confused:

Now the horde are former Axis Powers at best from here on out.

Edit: Blah, I’m just being whiny again. Sorry.

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Yup, they are. And that’s sad. Because the Horde were really interesting conceptually.

But…hey, that’s what the writers did. I donno what to do about it at this point lol.

Some of us kept trying to say this about Sylvanas. For years and years. As she’s been the worst one about this very thing. But Blizzard can’t help themselves.

You can’t swing wildly back to being the moral faction after you commit actual genocide. Or, if you do, it just reads as laughable and hollow. I’m sure they’re going to try and scapegoat it all on Sylvanas butttttt yeah.

I feel like even despite her motivation being the death of the Lich King, Sylvanas was never like a central, top tier character, not even in Wrath. Even in Wrath itself she’s not in it a super lot.

It wasn’t until Cataclysm that she became more and more ridiculous and that started coinciding with the Horde drifting more and more into the just evil column.

Yes obviously Garrosh had a lot to do about that as well, but they pretty quickly were telling us that he was a bad dude who didn’t represent the true Horde while Sylvanas was still around acting just like him and nobody was going, “hey what about that lady over there?” Except for the Alliance at the end of MoP, which was promptly ignored for wacky dimension adventures on Orclandia.

It’s not all Sylvanas’ fault as a character either, obviously. But I feel like there’s definitely some connection there between elevating her to become a top tier character and what’s happened with the faction she’s attached to.

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The Nerubians are almost a mirror image of the Forsaken of Lordaeron. I imagine with the defeat of Arthas at Icecrown the undead Nerubians, at least some, would be in the same situation as those who eventually went on to become the Forsaken.

That said, as both a race of living and undead I assume they require/ desire the same thing as any other race on Azeroth.

:pancakes:

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How about we don’t kill any lore characters off due to the knee jerk reactions of people? Because every time Blizzard does that, guaranteed the goldfish memories of the playerbase will reveal themselves a few years down the line and it’s all ‘I miss X’ posts.

The better solution is to have her in an advisor role for the Grand Executor, who is canonically next in line for leadership after Sylvanas anyway. This gives the Forsaken 100% legitimate rights to Lordaeron, equal to any living Lordaeron refugees or the Argent Crusade, and means any Alliance incursions therein aren’t morally or legally sound.

Her mere existence entire settles years of debate as to who owns what. Do I think she should lead the Forsaken? Hell no. Do I think the bulk of the reaction to her is from people who want the Horde to be ‘oh so scary bad and edgy’ and don’t want anyone ‘nice’ associated with it? Yes.

Just wait a few years for the Light versus Void expansion and she’ll be a raid boss anyway, because the writers have the subtlety of a neon brick attached to an airhorn.

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No, nor did I say that did I? Stop making strawman to tear down just because you want to have an argument.

Calia could have helped the Forsaken without challenging Sylvanas.

There is a difference between martial power and political power. If the heir to the throne of Lordaron had publicly stood up to Varian about his plans, it indeed could have had more impact than Jaina’s calls for peace.

Or do you think that the other races of the Alliance would like the precedent set of the King of Stormwind ignoring the wishes of another sovereign?

Doesn’t he do that all the time though?

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Remember Wolfheart. Varian HAD that power to step on fellow alliance leaders wishes.

Are you happy about that though? And do you think the other racial leaders should be happy with that?

You were asking about how other races of the alliance would react, which is an in-narrative consideration.

In the meta, you’re right. We don’t accept it. In the narrative, the Night Elves’ leader for example just got lobotomized into letting the Horde get away with a genocide because Christie Golden wants that.

My point being that these are entirely different conversations.

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  1. would “plot armour” contribute to having a good story?
  2. IMO it would’ve been better if the devs would just step by step introduce the totally new characters with the old ones being sort of on the background at most. Given how the devs treat old lore, it’s better when they don’t.

IMO it all boild down to the devs retconning or not the Light-undead stuff. If they don’t, problem is not the title, but just that she is there at all.

Depends on how they “share” it with other named groups I suppose.

Oh, in case you missed the pre-patch:

Calia Menethil says: I thought to be a bridge between the living and the undead. My first attempt ended in sorrow. But I have not given up hope, Lady Sanguinar.

To be honest, originally I thought that the devs might actually deliver an interesting story based on the premise of Shadowlands. But they are not interested in staying all that true to the lore, and think something like “I am the lore”, so, potential is largely wasted.

“Hight king” is a problem as a concept, and has been badly received since the beginning.


gl hf

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Different conversations they may be but the answer is broadly the same.

The considerations of other sovereign’s wishes should matter in the narrative. The reality is that they often don’t, but saying Calia speaking for the Forsaken would have had no impact because Jaina speaking for the Horde had no impact is a disingenuous statement Smallioz is making.

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Her presence on the arathi highlands meeting turned to a political cleansing by Sylvanas. So… yeah I am going to say that if Calia had gone to the forsaken she would have been murdered and thrown in a hole.

Um ok…? I already said as much.

What part of NO political and NO military power do you not understand? Calia had ZERO support and power, she was basically a refugee that the Alliance protected. You think Calia had any authority to challenge Varian’s decisions? lol.
Jaina who is the strongest mage the Alliance has as well as a major power player in Kalimdor had ZERO influence or sway over Varian.

Look you want to hate Calia because it makes you happy then be happy man but this character is not guilty of the crimes you pretend she is guilty of.

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Take Anduin from us and Teld is forgiven, i promise :stuck_out_tongue:

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Nor has she pretended to be like the real Forsaken.

What idea with her being the leader, because last I knew, they said she wasn’t the leader.

Not before he kills Jaina.

If you’re right about this, then you win. If Blizz really is this stupid, then maybe it really is time for WoW to disappear.

Deus Vult stan confirmed. You’re an Alliance Spy, just as they say. That’s the only logical explanation I can come up with for all this Calia-fearmongering.

Unless blizzard have truly executed the story in the absolute worst way concievable. But why is that always the first assumption on the forum?

God damnit Erevien!! Did you have to ruin a good point with simping Sylvanas?

BOTH are lost causes as far as racial leadership is concerned. I agree one can never ever get that job, it´s an oxymoron at it´s finests, but getting back the one ruined without repair is just as awful.

Please pull an Elsa and LET SYLVANAS GO!!!

Racial leadership is literally using the character in the WORST way possible. Is like devs killing both Nelf racial leaders and putting Delaryn in charge for the lols -now suddenly the Nelves would be ALL about undead and suffering. Peachy. Trash tier writting AND product design indeed-.

Well, the fact she is the only “Horde undead” to appear in the Shadowlands -you know, the “after life” expac that explores life after dead AND the actual magic source that made possible the existence of the Forsaken in the first place as per Maldraxxus storyline-, me thinks she IS already holding them back.

The possibilities regarding current carebear Calia + lowkey Arthas redemption are ATROCIOUS as far as the Forsaken racial development is concerned. Forget how abhorrent could be a redemption on Sylvanas, an actual redemption on Arthas is plain idiocy.

Which makes her whole development idiotic AF. Either that or the gal is a psychopath who cares for nothing but her “goals” indeed. And the Forsaken just got ridden of their former psycho racial leader, they don´t need another one in replacement.

Changing the flavor on the “black hole” and putting a “Lightforged airhead” will certainly NOT solve the actual lack of development for the whole Forsaken race. I mean, Zelling did MORE for actual exploration on Forsaken themes than Calia has done in TWO novel appearances and the current in-game appearance.

She´s literally MHP bait. Designed to “castrate” the Forsaken race into MHP approved standards, nothing else.

Certainly more than the batch “created” in Cata -who could ask to be put to rest after overcoming the Bloodlust of the raising process- AND more importantly: the “old crowd” have probably more political and military influence.

Fat chance, dude. Why would we get robbed ourselves? The price of getrting saddled with Anduin is clearly superior.

Cause if they actually had a minimum interest in analyzing the quality of their story, stupid stuff like the WoT and putting the “genocide” label into one of the FACTIONS would had never happened.

From Cata onwards, expecting the worst seem like a safe bet as far as lore is concerned.

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