No character “Needs to Die.”
Calia can still be a valuable and needed character to the Story, if used right.
7 Likes
You know, if all you’re really after is someone of flexible morality telling you you’re nothing, followed by a bunch of reprehensible orders, Goldshire is over yonder, friend. Just stay away from the draenei death knight with the eye patch; she’s nothing but trouble, the sultry minx.
Everybody is better off with Sylvanas gone. Forsaken culture was bound up too closely to her, and wasn’t able to properly develop as a society while she was around. Calia may not be perfect, but at least she isn’t actively holding the Forsaken back, at least not yet.
7 Likes
Speak for yourself. I am sure most Forsaken fans will side with Sylvanas over some light lady.
3 Likes
I just want Calia to go back into the memory hole that the writers pulled her out of.
She’s not Horde, nor is she a real Forsaken, and she abandoned her people when they needed her most to go live her own life for decades before deciding to care.
If her going back into the memory hole isn’t an option then just keep her as an Alliance character and be done with it. Make her the new High Priest of Stormwind or something.
19 Likes
No, her “People” were trying to KILL HER and EAT HER. She didn’t “abandon” anyone. She traveled with her people (those who survived) and lived among them, taking care of them, not as royalty but as a spiritual leader.
5 Likes
Sometimes I think certain Horde players just enjoy hating a character just for the sake of hating them.
At what point was Calia supposed to have come back to help the Forsaken that she abandonned?
4 Likes
Anytime after the third war when the Forsaken were reaching out for allies.
At the very least she might have stepped i. when Varian vowed that the Alliance would retake Lordaeron, to speak on their behalf.
10 Likes
So… Sylvanas would welcome the true heir of Lordaeron with open arms? Please…
You mean the time even Jaina could not talk him down? Calia isn’t a warrior and has no political or military power to capitalize with.
6 Likes
You want to know the biggest signifier that Calia is an awful character, at least in my view?
When the people who sit and whine that the Horde hasn’t lost enough characters or have been beaten down enough for the sake of their lil’ egos all enthusiastically endorse her.
17 Likes
If they had written it that way, it would be so. Instead they dropped her into a memory hole for years and then pulled her out again when they needed to introduce ‘Lightforged undead’ to the plot for whatever reason
But it’s her kingdom he was talking about retaking, and if she still cared so much about the plight of the Forsaken as was implied in the book that reintroduced her to the series, you’d think she would have a problem with him swearing to take their city from them by force.
It is telling how quick they are to defend the writers choices when it’s something Horde players don’t like, and lambast them as talentless hacks the rest of the time.
9 Likes
No kidding. I pointed out yesterday that Forsaken fans had as much of a grievance agasint what happened in BFA as night elf fans, and got the usual suspects jumping down my throat.
Because they lost a city you see, something that the forsaken obviously didn’t suffer as well…
11 Likes
That’s not what happened, at least if we’re referring to the same thread. You got called out for using a red herring, and your attempt to derail the thread was subsequently ignored.
Likewise, bringing Night Elf issues into this thread is a distraction of its own, because we’re not talking about the Night Elves, we’re talking about the forsaken.
As for Calia.
I think it’s clear as day that Calia does not fit in with the Forsaken aesthetic or theme, period. She’s a kind of human-colonizing force that I think Golden put there in her incessant attempts to Anduinify the franchise - and on that basis, I agree with the OP - Calia’s optimal place is at the bottom of a bin.
But I do want to raise this question - because by now I think it’s clear that Sylvanas isn’t coming back. Who should Calia be replaced with? Who among the existing leaders would fit in the best with what Forsaken players want for their race? If no such leader exists, what would a hypothetical replacement look like?
I’m not asking this as a “challenge”, it’s more that I want to expand the conversation. The forsaken WERE screwed over. BFA left a crater where their characterization used to be all so that they could get an expansion villain. We’re in a position where they have to pretty much be rebuilt from scratch it feels. So what kind of goal do we (and forsaken players in particular) have in mind for that?
7 Likes
Possibly, but also she is a much easier fit in the alliance able to progress several stuck story lines. At the same time build up for the horde would be rather long to make people get used to a character, and a pay off for all the work would be a repeat of Classic theme of “there are different forsaken” (what is more relevant: pre-undeath, or after).
Little work for a lot of result, vs. a lot of work for next to nothing.
IMO if that would’ve been a plan, than it should’ve used the “forsaken captive” story from rpg, and juxtapose it with gradual Sylvanas becoming like a Lich King story. Which would arrive up at MoP-WoD time for when the story should’ve been going already IMO.
gl hf
It never ceases to be interesting how Sylvanas loyalists will pretend that Sylvanas is a TRUE Forsaken that ACTUALLY represents what the people wants when she manipulated the former Lordaeroni the entire time and turned them into a tool for herself.
From the way she was brought back to the way she reclaimed her body, Sylvanas is very much unlike the rest of the Forsaken.
Funnily enough Calia culturally has way more connection to them than she does, an Elf from Quel’thalas who never cared about Loradaeron until she could twist them into her tool of revenge.
I have no great love of Calia, but it’s funny to see the insistence that this wholly outside character somehow is more like the Forsaken than the former Princess of the exact Kingdom the Forsaken are from.
Focus more on the remaining Forsaken characters and shore up their actual story. Calia can remain like some Cultural leader or something instead of the Queen of the Forsaken.
The thing that’s always sucked is that the Forsaken are a really interesting concept that’s been wholly overtaken by the black hole that is Sylvanas’ character. They never get to stand on their own. Let’s see what Faranell or Velonara think about the future of the Forsaken now. Or just bring back Zelling because he was one of the most compelling Forsaken they’ve ever written and they just killed him off to service Sylvanas’ dumb story.
7 Likes
Given how little development there is, I would personally prefer (in a hypothetical “rebuild the stuff and explore” expansion) to spend it to show various characters and their takes on the situation, and would take a look at the community reaction, gradually leading to a cast of a nominal leader + a few close character and build up the dinamic from there.
To me the most interesting character would’ve been Velonara because of how close she were to Sylvanas, so it would mirror the ways of the forsaken examining their identity and how to preserve it. And she would have rather tough time with the other leaders making her a good candidate for “work from shadows” approach that seems to be what the forsaken fans find decent enough.
For support cast I think Gunther is criminally underused, would does with magical stuff. Not quite sure if Belmond / Tuttersail would fit the new path, but them, or Black Bride who also has little screen time but is an interesting concept.
At least that would’ve been the first step.
gl hf
4 Likes
Personally, I don’t think the original race mattered as much as what they went through. While it’s true that almost all of them came from Lordaeron, I think of the race as more of a shared affliction with all of the associated feelings of abandonment, trauma and mental issues that came along with it. To me, Lordaeron as a culture just doesn’t matter; only its death does, and what sprang up from its metaphorical corpse.
So Calia has 0 appeal to me because her character was written to opt into being undead, done via the light, and is weirdly wholesome and welcoming. She doesn’t seem broken as a person. And the game trying to appeal to living Lordaeron sentiments falls flat for me.
While someone like Derek or the unnelves HAVE experienced something like this, the dynamic feels super awkward because the scourge didn’t do this to them; the horde did. I feel that them being part of the horde is as out of place as the original forsaken would be if they had willingly rejoined Arthas. I think I’d feel the same way about Godfrey, had he stuck around.
I think Lilian’s the closest to a replacement that anyone’s going to get, because despite being risen by the forsaken, at least she wasn’t killed by them first. So she at least hits some of the original abandonment themes the race had.
16 Likes
Seer Ixit. 
2 Likes
iirc Sylvanas for the original forsaken was the figure that gave them a new reason to exist, after what they’ve been through. And they were well aware that she was not too sentimental when it comes to the forsaken.
Classic-WotLK version of the character had some interesting traits.
ok
Calia would be one hell of a problem for undead if she is simply physically nearby. (unless the devs retcon the Light effects on undead out of the backstory)
Now that is unusual take if I’ve seen one. Would nerubians even have similar interests to regular races, I wonder.
gl hf
4 Likes
Could you not make this exact same argument about the 2nd crop of Forsaken though? The ones brought back from either the War against the Lich King in Wrath or the fights in Cataclysm?
There were very, very few actual Forsaken from Frozen Throne until Wrath, and after that quite a bit more were suddenly around. Or even MORE recently with the Forsaken Night Elves and Kul Tirans that the Forsaken were recruiting.
How many Forsaken that exist are the very original ones still from Lordaeron that broke off from the Lich King as a result of Illidan’s actions? I’d wager it’s not that many.
There are many names you can fit in here. Velonara, Black Bride, Belmont, Grand Executor Mortuus. But the truth is. None of them are worthy. I rather see the Forsaken deleted from the game instead of having them start from nothing. Players will understand that it is better to leave then to be without Sylvanas. Any true loyalist will be able to accept that.
Give Lordaeron to the alliance. It is over.
2 Likes