Button Bloat Topic

[Pigzig-nagrand]

its all addons
addons did it

[Ralekus-sargeras]

Addons and WeakAuras are the answer to the greater problem which is overly complex game design. Talking about PvE fight mechanics, PvP mechanics, and class design.

Blizzard has admitted to designing the game with addons and WeakAuras in mind, attributing to the unnecessary complexity for players who would prefer to play the game in a more baseline (addon lite) way.

Either reduce the complexity in the game overall, or start banning more addons/WeakAuras to reveal the complexity pain points the game is suffering with.

I want new players to join retail. I’m tired of new players going to Classic WoW because it’s simpler.

[Beedie-area-52]

@Remi-tichondrius

the idea that my class would lose less unique highskill ceiling utility because some boomer is afraid of checking the show extra action bar button is insanely frustrating to me

Because you are good at a video game you desire more challenge. I suppose that is good. But how does this affect bringing in more people?

Time investment, skill cap, button bloat, 3rd party addons, every little thing chips away from the player just jumping in, and getting some games in, having fun. The investment outweighs the rewards.

[Christtel-stormrage]

Oh its you again complaining about havigm things to do and press that interact with eachother and form a rotation/setup.

As oghers ha e said we have gone through prunning before and it has been proven to be one of the worst decsisions ever. We are good now

[Ralekus-sargeras]

I am enjoying hearing each perspective in one place.

[Dextructive-tichondrius (Dextructive)]

IMO Dragonflight is a botched attempt at emulating MoP. Keeping rotations compact and unevenly unpruning mobility, utility and CC lead to a ‘no middle grounds’ scenario where every spec can be anywhere and pseudo-burst all the time. There’s an overabundance in class resources and effortless bursts seem endless; there are too many mobility and utility cooldowns as well as micro-CC, and pets/npcs are too numerous and strong. I’d like to see more weight shifted into casters hardcasting, and melee being threatening with reduced uptime. Peeling should feel possible and CC setups should feel meaningful. The wild FoTM swings make your counter feel like a raid boss. WoW PvP thrives when it feels more like a Chess of who can plan their CC and burst rather a rock-paper-scissors of which meta comp renders its opponents unable to play as it burns them. Nerfing micro/pseudo-CC especially should make the game feel more playable for healers of all levels.

[Faketaxxi-tichondrius]

If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.

It’s clear that some consideration has gone into what number of skills each class has, and I think healers are the primary offenders of button bloat. DPS specs for the most part are fine and not every single button needs a hotkey assigned to it to function as a class. Players that want to strictly optimize their game will bind those buttons regardless of bloat.

Looking at the Hero talents as Blizzard’s way of saying, “We recognize that expanding the class/spec talent trees is a pitfall we have already dealt with once, so you will get these to expand on your class moving forward” I don’t expect any buttons to be added in the near future. Maybe something akin to a heart of azeroth empowerment for a patch or two, but nothing that is going to stick with each class.

I don’t particularly want my characters to lose features because I think even the less-used buttons can make a class feel more alive or whole. Losing stuff sucks. Ritual of Doom has literally zero purpose but I’d feel bad losing it because it’s fun, and I already have it.

There’s something to be said for avoiding moments where you inadvertantly lose a player’s trust.

[Boomboy-windseeker]

@Faketaxxi-tichondrius

If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.

Sub numbers would dare to say you are wrong.

[Turad-chaos-bolt]

@Faketaxxi-tichondrius

If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.

It is broken. No one is playing pvp and the game is constantly in a slow decline. We need people to see the game, think it looks fun so they actually want to give it a shot or return. Right now, anyone checking out retail that isn’t already invested is going to run for the hills.

[Failedwizard-frostmourne (Failedwizard)]

@Ralekus-sargeras

What is it about button bloat discussions that causes some people to go absolutely feral?

Because the last time they pruned classes they removed so much skill expression from the game. WoW is not a MOBA or an FPS, those are fundamentally different games to MMO’s.

@Adultwebsite-area-52

And not only that, nobody is telling you to use every ability in the game. Just because the ability exists, doesn’t mean it needs to be on your toolbar taking up space.

People in team prune always forget this in their threads. Buttons in WoW exist for both core rotations and niche situations and interactions, no one seriously thinks that Frostbolt as an example is meant to be keybinded for Fire and Arcane in every situation, or that Holy Priest is meant to use PW:Shield as a rotational button, that’s silly.

@Ralekus-sargeras

I’m not really totally sure. But they must realize this isn’t sustainable over multiple future expansions right? I suppose with the introduction of Hero Talents in War Within, this will aim to solve that future problem.

Hero talents are an attempt to bring new twists to existing abilities that exist across 2+ specialisations within a class (minus Paladin so far).

[Ralekus-sargeras]

@Failedwizard-frostmourne

Because the last time they pruned classes they removed so much skill expression from the game. WoW is not a MOBA or an FPS, those are fundamentally different games to MMO’s.

I understand that fear.

It’s just weird to me that anytime anyone even attempts to suggest small changes that would improve the game for newcomers, you’ll get people with extreme mindsets like this who think we’re asking for all DPS rotations to be 4 buttons max like a MOBA. Like we’re secretly set out determined to destroy the game for them, when in reality we want the game to flourish and be the best it can for every player.

I think the biggest dissonance for me is that I’m willing to let Blizzard go to crazy measures to make the game more accessible to new players, wheras many of the longtime existing player base wants no changes made. Or at least they never offer any helpful ideas to make the game less complex and more accessible for new players. I don’t think many existing players really care about the new player experience in a truly deep level. They probably think, “eh, Exile’s Reach was just added. New players are fine”. I don’t personally think they realize how difficult the modern game actually is now since they grew with it since pre-2010. “Oh they’ll learn like I did!” “Back in my day!” and so on.

The spells/abilities and mechanics in the game are already a learning curve for players on top of the fact that classes have become so complex that nearly every player feels required to use Weakauras and extensive combat addons to keep their head above water. Addons should be addons, not feel like near requirements. The amount of Weakauras used in Arenas these days is very telling as far as how complex things have become.

[Turad-chaos-bolt]

@Ralekus-sargeras

It’s just weird to me that anytime anyone even attempts to suggest small changes that would improve the game for newcomers, you’ll get people with extreme mindsets like this who think we’re asking for all DPS rotations to be 4 buttons max like a MOBA. Like we’re secretly set out determined to destroy the game for them, when in reality we want the game to flourish and be the best it can for every player.

You have to understand they don’t care that the game is totally inaccessible to new players. There’s clearly a huge gap between 4 buttons and 40 that we can shoot for but they don’t want any reduction in complexity even if it would help the health of the game overall. Anyone objectively looking at modern WoW knows it’s not going to pull in new or returning players.

[Exalter-malganis (Exalter)]

less buttons but bigger better ones

oh and bring back auto bubble thats 1 free key right there!

[Beedie-area-52]

@Boomboy-windseeker

Sub numbers would dare to say you are wrong.

I swear there are many players who would rather the game stay the same (witch is not working) and a the slow death of this game, than to ever change and bring in new players.

[Lorethon-moon-guard]

Cleaning up old posts!

[Finders-tichondrius]

gonna be bloat when they make every class a combo builder spender

[Ralekus-sargeras]

A lot of people hate builder/spender classes in WoW but I honestly don’t really know how else they can make classes interesting.

Evoker has Essences and Mana so they aren’t that builder/spender compared to other classes being a brand new class. I think Evoker class design is some of the best we have ever got in WoW (besides the 25 yard range).

I wonder what other methods Blizzard could make class design feel new and unique besides either just being builder/spender or proc machines. The game is pretty old, but I feel like it wouldn’t be impossible to add more modernity, similar to Evoker’s charge up spells (Fire Breath, Eternity Surge, etc.).

[Failedwizard-frostmourne (Failedwizard)]

Ah builder spender, we had a word for that, we called it Rage, which we then called Combo Points, which we then called Focus, which we then called Chi, which we then called Astral Power, which we then called Maelstrom, which we then called Insanity inside Void Form, which we then called Arcane Charges, which we then called Essence.

We’ve had a lot of specs based either solely or partially around builder spender resources.

[Failedwizard-frostmourne (Failedwizard)]

Evoker was a hit for a lot of people because they actually did something completely different to any other class by adding the Empower mechanic to it, it’s the reason Preservation is such a unique healer specialisation and it sure has plenty of buttons on it.

[Failedwizard-frostmourne (Failedwizard)]

Rubbish, we just don’t want the game to repeat the mistake made last time they pruned a bunch of buttons away and turned half the specs in to various different colours of the Rage resource bar.

I appreciate having niche buttons to answer less common situations; I’m not going to use Soothe on a Druid much but if I ever do a M+ dungeon on a week with the Raging affix active I’m going to be making liberal use of that specific button (in fact M+ is a big reason behind the return of a lot of niche buttons to the game, maybe you should accept that while M+ exists you’re going to have a lot more advanced buttons in the game).