Bring DFA Back and Fix Sub

Sub was incredibly fun in Legion. Then, for whatever reason, you decide to destroy it.
You could have easily fixed the small bugs with DFA’s positioning and tweaked some things but instead you decided to kill the spec… At least it was viable for M+ in the beginning of BFA which you killed for one boss.

Come on. Sub, at least to me, made you feel like a stealthy Rogue. Popping in and out of stealth with quick actions and teleports. Then you had a badass flip that did awesome ST and AOE dmg.

I vote to bring DFA back and make sub great again.


Legion Subtlety was an absolutely disaster. They took the most interesting spec in WoW, deleted half of its spellbook, removed much of its connection to the Rogue class, pruned buttons my character has had since 2005, added a cringey and hamfisted shadow magic class fantasy completely out of left field, reduced the PvP gameplay to one dimensional Cheap Shot spam, and ruined the awesome symphony of control and burst that Subtlety used to be for about a decade – right up until Legion.


I think it’s abundantly clear that they’re not going to do anything with it until the next expansion. I’m not sure why anyone expects anything sooner at this point.


Completely agree from a PVP standpoint. I am talking about PVE here.

@Westward I don’t know why you would assume I was expecting changes immediately. I am not.

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Personally I hope BFA stays as a pvp talent, but that’s just mainly because I’m selfish and want to use it as an outlaw rogue.

It’s not really the best choice, ever, but it’s really fun to use. And what’s more important then having fun? Optimal dps you say? Nah.

Legion Sub was garbage too. Better than BfA Sub, but that isn’t saying much.


well it would be nice if they could say, “hey, we are working on sub” or something… ANYTHING


Yeah, for sure. But then there’d be people pestering for details (not that players shouldn’t have input on this stuff. We know the classes better than they do) and every other class that’s broken and not mentioned similarly demanding an update.

My guess is that major class overhauls are in store for the next expansion. I’m pretty sure they’ve already said as much.

It does seem wise to keep the details and nature of the changes under wraps until they’re ready to reveal the expansion.

If someone can find where they’ve said they’re planning class rework in the next expansion, that should be enough of an update for sub for now.

They’re working on it. Play outlaw or assassination, some other class, or some other game for 10 months.

I really hope they give all rogues bleeds and poisons back. or at least the ability to disarm a trap


Your comment about at least let me disarm traps gave me a throwback to our great rogue stand of ‘05ish:

Give me swirley ball or give me death!!!

From release until present I’ve played a rogue. It’s been my main class since ‘06. With the exception of a few times going combat/swords for progression raiding where it demanded it I’ve Been sub.

I actually took a break from WoW from late ‘15 until this summer and when I came back I looked at my beloved spec.
My first reaction: WTF!?!? Where’s my hemo!?! Then I TRIED to play it for 2 days before saying screw it and going outlaw.

The fact that sub’s current situation turned a DIEHARD sub advocate of 12+ years to a different spec/build speaks for itself.

Also it should be noted when I came back I couldn’t believe that regardless of spec I went from 15+ buttons//spells//combos//cool downs to manage to only 6 or 7. /shrug


Last time sub was good was in Wod.

And even wod was but a shadow of mists version of sub.

At least in Wod my class still did damage as sub.


Need baseline gouge back and single charge shadow dance w/ more base damage on backstab. It’s sad how the classic rogue kit feels more complete than modern rogue


Never understood the shadow magic thing either. First or second rogue quest you do in classic and it talks about how rogues do not have any magical capabilities, that’s why they used dirty tricks to gain an advantage over those that do. Just shows you that blizzard has forgot the direction that they wanted to go with some classes.


I once hit a mage in WSG for 11 Million with DFA. I hit a raid boss for 17 Million. Those were the days.

FYI - shadow damage was a response to getting rid of most of the debuffs like sunder or expose armor. It gave rogues access to something other than physical damage, which can be mitigated by armor.

Not saying I agree, but that’s why it was done.

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I’m grinding through Sub right now, I do pretty good DPS but my hopes are on them fixing it in PVE. Assassin and Outlaw are okay but not my style. I do miss DFA, if anything it was a cool little combo. I think they’ll fix it, but it won’t be in BFA.

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Hi there. I just looked at your profile and you have pretty nice ilvl. Are you doing myth + as Sub? Or just raiding with it? Tks and grats again!

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I do everything in Sub, it’s fun i do great ST but AoE is meh.

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When a legion patch changed the optimal pve rotation from using dance to build combo points to getting as many finishers during dance, that was more engaging. I’m not sure why it feels so bad to go into dance just to build cp with shadowstrike instead of hitting evis but it does.

Dfa crits for 30 million made it enjoyable near the end of the expansion but that was just because seeing that in one hit was so ridiculous. The gampeplay of hitting an off global in mid air while I show my Olympic gymnast skills isn’t as fun or rogue like as say, building two combo points to use on slice and dice before I open from stealth. Or most of all, gouging for a restealth
Dfas place is as a gap closer is the amazing moment it has given me - i.e. the monk ports across town but you fly at him to reconnect. Or as a skill to avoid cc, I’m not that good but I know it’s possible.

I don’t remember specifics now but, I liked wod sub and shelved my rogue for months with the legion prepatch out of disgust.


Say it louder please for those in the back.

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