Bruh, just choose the lonely winter talent if you don’t want it? It’s so obvious if you just use like 10% of your brain.
yikes…
water ele use to give range nova which was pretty much required back in the day pvp wise until later on when lance builds started to pop up. Because mage in PVP was stronger with water ele it was balanced around having a range nova in its kit. So not having it was nerfing yourself. Also no need to be so toxic on a video game forum
There’s some factually wrong things in this post that i won’t bother correcting. It either means you haven’t actually pvped on your mage in forever or you don’t know what you’re doing. Heck you didn’t even realize the temporary pet still had the nova. Stop trolling.
Just ignore my post then we are talking about PERM water ele your context is completely off and your bias is showing. He said you never had to use water ele back when it was perm and i told him that we had patches that water ele was required for kiting and burst and frost mage was balanced around having that extra nova (Some patches lonely winter was not the go to).
Also i have a mage that just hit 1800 on frost this season. I know water ele still exists but we are talking about perm water ele and the fact that just because you have a talent to put it away doesnt mean its viable to do so.
The fact of my statement remains and that is if water ele exists then it should be optional and not better than not having it. End of story, no need to be toxic about it, its a very simple request.
You’re the one being toxic here. You’re pretending it was required when it wasn’t when we lost it. The era you’re referrimg to is ancient history. Turns out 25% damage is just that good. I literally got shouted down when i used this argument for keeping welly, because pvpers needed it, someone came up on these forums, showed the stats with all the top frost mages taking lw and then told me i was a noob. You can post on your 1800 main now (it’ll mean little because of boosts but who knows maybe something will make it obvious)
From my perspective, knowing that data and that you’re insisting it was reality when the change was made makes me think you are the world’s biggest troll trying to control the design of a class you haven’t played in so long that you’re completely unaware. If you have recently played your mage, it means you have done 0 research in how to play properly and you’re still wrong, making yourself into a victim because you couldn’t be bothered to figure out what is most effective. How’s that for bias? You hate it so much you pretend it was required when it was lost, except it wasn’t required at all.
At the end of the day, good devs lean into fantasy and make it easy to play. I honestly felt like welly management wasn’t that bad in legion. All you had to do was hit ctrl+1 in pve to make it attack what you wanted. It would automatically move in range of said mob. This is for pve obviously. Also i’m resentful i was forced to take lw leading up to it being removed as permanent, and that the only times welly was meta was the no il builds, which were disgusting boring to play.
The real victims here are the people who were holding out hope it would be balanced so we could use it only for it to be taken away. Icing on the cake is trolls like you who care little for fantasy and instead of getting cludgy things fixed, whine.
Taking an active ability over a passive one should always be better and has been a guiding principle of class design since i came back in legion. Lonely winter was an abomination that didn’t even follow blizz’s rules.
Im being toxic? Way to show your bad faith
Saying if you add in pets to frost it should be balanced with not having one is not toxic. You are being so weird
Blizz has always intended to make active abilities stronger, i remember seeing discussions about people complaining when they were weaker during legion and remember seeing subsequent buffs. The fact lw was so much stronger was broken. I appreciate the attitude/overarching idea you had, and had our dev stuck with that design and kept it, i wouldn’t be calling this out. To me though it feels really unfair the % of people i see complaining about welly who don’t actually play frost.
A large majority of the complainers want frost petless so they can use it like a side chick when their spec has a bad season and that’s just not good for fantasy or feel to have a spec controlled by people who don’t main it, it actively pushes out people who actually care about the whole picture on their class/spec.
yea disagree, Pet micro management is awful and saying that if you add pets to mage it has to be stronger than a passive just ruins it for everybody that doesnt want perm pet micro management, so keep calling me toxic for suggesting it should be a choice rather than forcing it.
You are. You clearly haven’t been playing your mage and are smearing someone for wanting to play their class according to lore.
And i wouldn’t be advocating that had lw and welly been balanced the way you want. But now lw feels like it was an excuse to take welly away for people who have 0 investment in the class and i want blizzard to follow their own principles before gathering “data”. Heck if they were balanced it would have been easier for me to accept the iv decision.
My mage is 1800 right now what are you even talking about. Im not smearing anybody by suggesting that if you bring perm pet back it should be balanced so its optional. Pet micromanagement is annoying and most people find it annoying. If its stronger to run pet people will feel forced.
Delusional calling my take toxic
The delusional person is the person claiming welly was meta at the time of the rework lol. Post on your main.
I never said it was meta??? I said there have been patches water ele has been meta before it was removed.
I am going to enjoy mage next expansion and it will be petless. 
majority will be happy perma pet isnt forced.
There’s literally 0 reason to say this to guy above you if you were talking about recent events. It’s much easier to have a conversation when it’s grounded in reality. It was literally balanced the opposite way.
Sure you will, once you’re done messing around on your dh lol.
This is mage my mage, stop being dellusional. I play mage casually and its been my on and off main for years. Just because you want frost to be a pet spec doesnt mean others do. I can have an opinion that i dont want mage to be forced to have a perma pet that doesnt make me toxic. Suggesting to make it an option should be a completely normal take. Im assuming you are trolling now.
So why did you start going off on that guy that just told you to take lw? I feel like you became sane once you got called out.
Asking for something that requires active gameplay as opposed to passive to be more powerful is completely sane. I don’t think welly will come back but i’m going to drag lw design through the mud as much as i can after being forced to take it for 3 straight expansions. It wasn’t balanced and it was balanced in the worst possible direction promoting passive over active gameplay.
The fact you’re actively playing frost gives me more respect for you now, even if i disagree with you.
Why did i go off on the guy that said “Use 10% of your brain and just use a lonely winter”.
I didnt “Go off” on him at all, i called him toxic first off for his comment which i think is fine to say considering its somewhat rude. Then i said if frost mage was going to get perm water ele then it should be optional and not be tied to key utility like range nova and he agreed. I play hunter and the whole hunter community is sick to death of needing to summon then dismiss our pets while using lone wolf to use key utility like lust or our only stun.
Just because lone winter was viable before doesnt mean if they make pets a big part of frost mage in the future it would still be viable. If key utility is put behind a pet then players will play those talents even if they are not fun to use\micro manage a pet. shadowlands rep was a good example of players picking what is strongest over what is more fun.
So my comment was only saying if they do add perm pets back to frost dont force people to pick them by locking key utility behind it.
I can agree with this.
I was kinda hoping in TWW we’d get summon water elementals more akin to the WC3 Archmage version. An elemntal that lasts a couple mins with a shorter coold down, so after time you could have 3-4 of them out.
Would prefer something to do with water elementals over the new Death’s Chill capstone.
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I’d be down for this as well. More frost mages may tolerate it better as temporary pet seems to make a lot of people happy for some reason. If they did this though, i’d like there to be a talent that ensures you always have at least 1 when you aren’t mounted.
They need to have Lonely Winter (no water elemental + damage) or Little Wet buddy (Water Elemental - Glyphs change version). At present the name makes no sense and it is a single click talent. Add the choice.
There is no reason to not have the choice the way it was. Nothing was broken and I am not going to argue optimal builds, screw optimal builds; as much as I played a Frostfire build patches after it was beat by fire back in Wrath; fun>optimal build epen meters.
• Icey Veins can pop up a second water elemental - it is the same net increase and would be cool as hell.
• FrostFire Hero talents could make a Frostfire elemental, that would be cool as hell.
• Spellslinger Hero talents could make on of the purple elementals that Khadgar makes.
• Or… wait for it… Hero talents could have no effect on the elementals at all!!!
• Mages are not pet classes! They were for 10+ Years. In lore mages have semi permanent elementals performing various tasks and we even had them as troops in Legion. Not to mention, summoning constructs is a common fantasy niche for mages and wizards.
If you are a frost mage that does not want a permanent water elemental, then choose Lonely Winter.
Blizz, you all talk about giving players choices, you literally removed a choice that’s only real impact was to piss off some of your player base and feed the forum trolls to bug those that want it back. You all really need to reconsider this decision.
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