I came back to this forum after a long haitus to bring up something very similar! I agree with your well written post.
I mostly play BM and I miss the choice of having the fantasy of one really cool pet that you hunted down and can buff. Forced to take 2 now or else a huge dps loss. Okay, so I coped, so I went to get two matching undead T-Rexxes to match my undead dark ranger. I want just one, but okay I’ll do 2.
Now I have a huge goofy looking half-baked darkhound that procs, instead of something minimal and non-cheesy like the awesome crows. It seems easily glyphable or something. The darkhound is nearly as big as my Trex’s, but it’s cartoonish art is miles behind.
Another huge what the heck is the fact I can’t manage what comes out of my stable during Dire Beast procs, unless I delete everything I caught that I don’t want coming out, ruining my theme!
It seems all to easy to make a simple section in the stable for dire beasts!
I agree with you, but the m+ players didnt like that the Pet had abilities that were necessary in the dungeon group.
Mainly bloodlust, they disliked the necessity to summon pet, use bloodlust, then dismiss the pet again.
They could have fixed this by giving an ability called "desperate call’ where you temporary summon the pet, he does his special ability then fades in like 5 seconds.
But as it is with the game ever since M+ was introduced, a lot of things are sacrificed for it
I mean, this is funny when considering that you have to spend 8 talents to unlock rows 4-6 in the MM tree and there are only 8 talents in rows 1-3. You have to take all 8 of their mandatory talents to progress.
Nothing has functionally changed. Its ONE talent point you just swap if you want to use the pet. The damage trade off is small enough that unless you are pushing SUPER high keys or mythic raids you can just do whatever you prefer.
Except now:
Your pet is STRONGER than it was before as they buffed it
The damage penalty for having the pet out is less
Its still optimal to not run a pet in groups - this hasnt changed
Its still optimal to have a pet for soloing - this hasnt changed
You can now run whatever pet you want as their spec isnt determined by the pet itself anymore
You dont need to do clunky awkward nonsense like sumon a pet, lose 10% of your DPS, cast lust, wait for dismiss pet to channel, then wait for the lone wolf stacks to slowly come back also you are no longer restricted to specific pet types.
Everything in your post is exactly the same or better with the new option.
Lets break down your nonsense claims one by one
This hasnt changed.
Pet out (Unbreakable Bond) → pet does damage, tanks, provides utility
Pet away (Avian Specialization) → you do that damage instead
That is 100% identical to how it was with Lone Wolf.
No weird tax - except the 10% damage reduction
No fake “choice.” - The choice is to run a pet or not. This hasnt changed
No gameplay friction - except for the whole summon, use lust, lost time to pet dismiss. And the fact Lone Wolf took time to build stacks so you lose that DPS too. And the fact you could only use ferocity pets limiting choice.
Solo players - this hasnt changed
Group players - this hasnt changed
Personal preference - this has improved as you can now pick any pet you want
Fantasy - this has improved as you can now pick any pet you want
Run petless in raids - this hasnt changed
Run pet solo - this hasnt changed
Swap without re-engineering your entire tree - What are you even talking about? Its literally one single choice node, what “re-engineering your entire tree”? Also even if you wanted to run a completely different spec to optimise pet stuff the ability to save talent loadouts means this is literally press 1 button.
Hidden DPS taxes - you lose exactly what the talent says, nothing is hidden. You not understanding or refusing to read the talent is not hiding stuff. Also the penalty is now lower than it was before
Structural path dependencies - its a choice node, the only thing affected by this is that choice node
“Pet is optional but punished” - this is literally unchanged from Lone Wolf where having the pet out was optional but it was punished
If losing a small amount of damage, literally the only trade off, is “making you feel bad about it” literally nothing has changed. Thats exactly how it was with Lone Wolf.
It IS a choice, the EXACT SAME CHOICE you had previously. Run a pet with a DPS penalty or dont run a pet. This has not changed. It cant suddenly be coercion because its literally the exact same choice with the exact same trade offs.
Solo feels bad - Choose unbreakable bond and have a pet
Threat feels bad - Choose unbreakable bond and have a pet
Kiting feels bad - Choose unbreakable bond and have a pet
Standing still feels bad - This has nothing to do with pets
Casting Aimed Shot feels bad - This has nothing to do with pets
No blizzards answer was a choice node where you could choose to trade off a small amount of DPS to have a pet. The exact choice you make with Lone Wolf. They also buffed the pets HP and damage to make it better than it was previously at all the solo stuff you use a pet for.
You can literally choose the pet. It plays the same as a result. In fact its better because the pet is buffed. They IMPROVED solo pet play for MM. The identity of petless being preferred and ideal is EXACTLY THE SAME as the was the entire point of Lone Wolf - trade pet for more damage. Once again, I feel like a broken record here, NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
Always taken in raids - no pets in group was the same then as it is now
Too clean - you have the exact same choice but without all the clunky summon, lust, dismiss nonsense, the damage penalty every time you need to do that, the restricted pet choices
Too obvious - What does this even mean? The current choice node is very clear cut and obvious. More damage with no pet or less damage with pet. Choose a pet where you need its benefit (solo), dont choose a pet where you need the extra damage (group). Its the same obvious choice. Again, nothing has changed.
A clean damage swap - NOW its a clean damage swap. before it was a clunky lose a GCD to summon, lose 10% damage, cast lust, lose the DPS time as you channel dismiss pet, lose the DPS as Lone Wolf slowly stacks back up, make sure you have only specific pet types regardless of preference, identity, anything - ferocity only. NOTHING about that is a clean swap. Sure in solo vs group it was a clean choice in so far as it was a clear choice but, again, This. Hasnt. Changed.
A clumsy utility vs damage fork - the choice is more damage or a pet. Lone wolf is more damage or a pet. its the exact same choice. There is no fork, its a single choice node, this doesnt affect any other talent choice.
Looks clean - its a choice you still have, nothing has changed about that
Looks sniper-like - its a choice you still have, nothing has changed about that
Looks good in trailers - its a choice you still have, nothing has changed about that
But plays worse in real content. - its a choice you still have, nothing has changed about that
You arent. The only “punishment” is trading damage for a pet. The exact same trade off you were making previously. The pet is now stronger and does more damage, it was a buff to choosing the pet.
Didn’t hurt anyone - except for every MM player in a group who was the lust and every MM player who wanted a pet choice that wasnt ferocity and the overall group DPS because the hunter nerfed themselves just to lust
Didn’t break balance - neither does the current choice. Completely irrelevant comment
Didn’t force playstyles - neither does the current choice. You can choose with a pet for a damage penalty or without a pet for extra damage. Identical choice as to previously. Completely irrelevant comment
Didn’t ruin dungeons - except for the stuff I just mentioned above. All of which are no longer things and none of those tradeoffs or penalties exist any more.
Except for the clunky trade offs and restrictions, but anything is possible if you just lie.
Player agency - which increased because now you can have any pet you want as you are no longer forced to take a ferocity pet for lust and no longer forced to summon a pet and take the penalties to provide basic group functionality.
Meaningful choices - The choices are exactly the same. Pet with a dps penalty or no pet with extra DPS. Nothing has changed.
Reduced friction - Which they achieved because now you can just lust with no silly trade offs, summon/dismiss dances, forced pet summons, forced pet types, all those problems gone
Remove Lone Wolf - and replace it with a vastly superior, less problematic choice node that increases player agency, resolves clunky gameplay issues, brings hunter lust in line with other classes, etc
Add friction - This didnt happen. It removed a bunch of clunky nonsense and bad gameplay situations and allwoed players to use any pet they want
Reduce agency - See above
Punish solo play - choose the option to have a pet, nothing has changed here. The pet also has more HP and damage so they not only didnt punish solo play they BUFFED solo play.
Force respec micromanagement - What micromanagement? Its one choice node. If you choose to play with a pet and make no other changes the choice is exactly the same as just playing with a pet out with lone wolf. Except now you have lust with any pet you want and now you can have lust AND have your pet specced as tenacity for solo. Also there are talents in the Hunter tree for increased healing on the pet and other talents that were better for solo than what you would choose for Raids or M+ so you were changing spec anyway. Spec loadouts are saved, its literally click 1 button.
Lone Wolf was better - wrong, it was the same choice with far more restrictions and tradeoffs
The current system is worse - wrong, it is the same choice with far less restrictions and tradeoffs
MM lost flexibility for no real gain - no flexibility was lost, its the exact same choices available with the exact same benefits for the exact same situations
This change didn’t fix AoE - this has nothing to do with pets what are you even on about here ???
Didn’t fix dungeons - except for the fact every hunter now has lust and they no longer take penalty hits doing the pet dance
Didn’t improve balance - it made literally no difference. Actually I lie, they buffed pets with Unbreakable Bond so it was actually a slight increase in solo ability.
Didn’t improve fun - Zero changes in choice, no more forced pet types, no more forced damage reductions to lust, no more forced pet summoning to lust, no more clunky buffs and dismiss dances are all improvements in fun
It made group utility (lust) far less annoying and removed the penalty. That is an upgrade, not a downgrade, as is the pets increased HP and damage with Unbreakable Bond. Youre right, it wasnt a lateral change, it was a buff.
And I dont want to hear about “tHe FoRcEd EaGLe PeT” its not a pet, its a spell effect that appears on the screen for a split second from time to time. Yeah it could be your pet rushing in as the graphic and that would be cooler, but thats literally the only potential real complaint - the eagle “pet” could just use your pets model. If they had never called it a pet (which again, its not a pet) nobody would ever bring it up.
All you have done is ignore reality and repeat the same nonsense over and over and over and over.
The new options are better, pick a pet or dont, pick any pet you want because you can now, play exactly as you did before because nothing has changed.
You’re conflating numerical cleanup with mechanical equivalence, and those are not the same thing. The current system is not identical to Lone Wolf, even if the surface-level choice looks similar.
1. +15% pet damage does not compensate for what is lost
+15% pet damage does not mean +15% DPS. MM pet damage is a small fraction of total damage. Even with the buff, that bonus translates to roughly ~1% total DPS at best.
That bonus exists to keep the pet from being dead weight — not to replace what is lost by skipping Avian Specialization. So invoking “buffed pets” as a counterargument is misleading. The pet is still not a real damage engine.
2. The loss is not just Avian Specialization — it’s compounded synergy
Avian Specialization directly buffs Spotter’s Mark. Spotter’s Mark is then further leveraged by:
Aimed Shot frequency
Talents balanced assuming Avian is present
Those talents do not disappear when Avian is removed — but their value drops. This creates a compounding loss, not a flat one. Old Lone Wolf did not work this way.
3. Lone Wolf removed damage evenly; the current system removes it at peak moments
Old Lone Wolf:
Flat damage tradeoff
Evenly distributed
Easy to mentally price
Current system:
Damage is removed from burst windows
Loss is concentrated into Aimed Shot / Spotter’s Mark payoff
The spec feels worse exactly when it should feel best
Even if the final DPS delta is similar, the shape of the loss is worse. That is a real mechanical difference.
4. “It’s just one talent point” is not a rebuttal
Yes, it is one choice node.
That node:
Alters Spotter’s Mark value
Alters burst payoff
Alters how downstream talents perform
Simplicity of implementation does not negate impact.
5. The problems with Lone Wolf did not require removing it
All of the legitimate issues you mention:
Forced pet families
Lust friction
Summon/dismiss nonsense
Were implementation problems, not Lone Wolf problems.
They could have been fixed without replacing a flat, passive damage toggle with a synergy-dependent talent fork.
Blizzard chose redesign over iteration. That is a choice — not proof that Lone Wolf was inferior.
6. This is not about “feelings” or “nostalgia”
This is about damage structure. Flat modifiers behave differently than synergy-based modifiers, even when total DPS is similar.
The current system:
Shifts loss into MM’s strongest moments
Makes the no-pet option synergistically richer
Makes the pet option feel like it’s missing part of the engine
That did not happen under Lone Wolf.
Bottom line
The current system is cleaner, but it is not equivalent.
Pet damage buffs do not offset lost personal synergy
Damage loss is now concentrated instead of flat
Lone Wolf traded damage evenly; Unbreakable Bond trades it selectively
That difference matters for how MM actually plays.
The pet damage buffs are also in HP which improves tanking, and the DPS buff offsets the extra DPS loss from the talent swap.
The actual DPS loss from having a pet out is actually slightly less overall than the damage loss of lone wolf - with lone wolf the pet contributed about 5% of your damage but you lost 10% of yours.
Spotters mark loses the 20% damage bonus to its 35% damage bonus to 30% of aimed shots which works out to a less overall loss than Lone Wolf.
If the difference in burst from these two is somehow affecting your ability to play in an way thats noticeable outside of playing “analyse the damage meter” its an absolute skill issue.
The benefits are significant, the trade off is negligble, the overall DPS is higher.
This whole thing boils down to “NO I DONT LIKE CHANGE MAKE IT STOP”
You’re arguing total DPS. I’m arguing where the damage is removed. Those are not the same thing for MM.
Lone Wolf
Removed damage flatly
Burst windows stayed intact
Aimed Shot payoff was unchanged
Current system
Removes damage specifically from Spotter’s Mark
Which directly reduces Aimed Shot burst
Which disproportionately hits Trueshot and on-demand damage
Yes, the average DPS difference may be small.
No, the burst profile is not.
MM lives and dies on:
Aimed Shot density
Trueshot payoff
Front-loaded damage
Avian directly amplifies that. Unbreakable Bond directly weakens it. That did not happen under Lone Wolf.
Saying “overall DPS is similar” completely misses the point — MM doesn’t feel bad because totals are lower, it feels bad because damage is missing exactly when it should spike.
Pet damage being +15% is irrelevant to that discussion. That’s ~1% total DPS and does not replace lost burst leverage.
This isn’t “meters” or “skill.” It’s damage distribution, not damage amount.
You can argue the tradeoff is acceptable.
You can’t argue it’s mechanically identical to Lone Wolf — it isn’t.
The tradeoff is a trivial difference. Yes avian affects those and if you do the math on how much it affects those its very little.
The burst loss is utterly insignificant. Anything you could burst down in seconds before you can burst down in seconds after. Anything that lives long enough that you need to sit and do the rotation on the overall damage makes no difference.
There is no tangible gameplay or capability difference before and after. You are arguing about a trivial difference that has no real world affect on anything other than side by side comparing damage meter logs.
It doesnt feel bad, it feels exactly the same. Everything dies the same, everything bursts down the same, everything functionally plays the same. The only possible thing that might be changed is if you could 1 shot it from an aimed shot by JUST enough previously you may have to rely on the follow up auto shot now if you get a low rng non buffed aimed shot. Oh no the game is ruined and terrible.
If the difference is so trivial that the gameplay is completely unchanged its mechanically identical.
If you want to split hairs over some trivial non issue that doesnt actually exist when you actually play the game and only exists in log comparisons fine, you do you.
You’re actually reinforcing my point, not disproving it.
If the difference is truly as trivial as you claim, functionally identical, no real gameplay impact, nothing meaningfully changed, then there was no reason to change Lone Wolf in the first place.
If the current system produces the same outcomes, then Blizzard:
Spent time redesigning it
Re-tuned talents around a petless baseline
Introduced structural dependencies
For no functional gain
Where we disagree isn’t about math, it’s about direction.
The spec is now clearly tuned around:
Petless being the intended state
Pet being a tolerated exception
Future tuning almost certainly reinforcing that baseline
That matters even if today’s numbers are close.
Lone Wolf said:
“You choose.”
The current system says:
“You can… but this isn’t what we’re building around.”
Those are not the same message.
Also, dismissing this as “log whining” misses the point. MM is a burst-centric spec. Small changes to where damage is removed matter more here than raw totals.
Even if you personally don’t feel it, that doesn’t make the design concern imaginary, it just means you don’t value that axis of gameplay.
That’s fine. I do.
As for “this is a year old” yes, and I disagreed with it then too.
Time passing doesn’t magically turn unnecessary design changes into good ones.
Holy crap yes the details about HOW the damage is reduced are now different and more integrated.
At the end of the day this remains a LITERAL ACTUAL FACT:
Lone wolf:
Yes Pet = Less Damage
No Pet = More Damage
Unbreakable Bond:
Yes Pet = Less Damage
No Pet = More Damage
Lone Wolf:
The class is built around the assumption of no pet except some clunky interactions where you dont really use the pet but you need it for lust
You can run a pet anyway if you want, the difference is not that big of a deal outside of bleeding edge content
Unbreakable Bond:
The class is built around the assumption of no pet, no random nonsense beyond that.
You can run a pet anyway if you want, the difference is not that big of a deal outside of bleeding edge content
The burst profile has stayed the same.
The solo ability has stayed the same.
The group ability has improved dramatically.
The ability to choose any pet is now better.
You can choose to run a pet which is less optimal with no major impact which is the same.
The only actual change is how the damage reduction is calculated. Yes it slightly takes away from certain things more but also it takes away from other things less compared to a flat %. No its not an amount or in a way that has any impact in gameplay whatsoever other than number breakdown in a combat log.
This right here is the fundamental issue - The entire point of Lone Wolf is because that is the assumed way to play the MM spec. It has always been the optimal choice and the class was designed around that. Its why NONE of the talent points in the rest of the tree have anything to do with the pet. MM being a petless spec has been the default playstyle and design for almost as long as the game has been out.
Lone Wolf was put in to reflect that - damage was lowered and then buffed back via the massive 10% which can be offset by a pet somewhat in single target but as pets cant AoE its a massive nerf in AoE but it created really awkward clunky interactions.
The new changes fixed all those issue.
The issue is you are projecting YOUR feelings on what YOU think MM should be onto the game and ignoring the reality of what it ACTUALLY is and has been for the longest time.
I already know your response is going to be to tell me Im wrong and repeat yourself over and over as if projecting really really hard will make it real. It wont.
Either accept it or dont and cope but its not coming back.
And again its really dumb and stupid to get this up in arms over because regardless of ideology or “nOw iTs ToLeRaTeD” your functional gameplay choices have remained unchanged - run a pet or dont, both are perfectly viable, youre playing a computer game not an ideology of the devs behind the scenes simulator.
No your opinions and feelings dont line up with the devs (and quite frankly the majority of the player base), they gave you an option to keep pets and allow you to play it the other way anyway - something I VERY strongly campaigned for because losing a pet entirely would have been devastating and they originally didnt plan to keep them at all.
They came up with a solution that kept your previous options but allowed them to proceed with their vision without the big tuning issues a giant 10% nerf or buff to damage caused.
That logic doesn’t even make sense. BM isn’t the “pet spec” – it’s the “dual exotic pet spec”. All hunter specs were assumed to have functional and useful pets as a baseline.
If anyone is all up in arms, that would be you. You’re the one that seems to be upset and offended, calling me, stupid and dumb.
All I have done is express my opinion, and I have every right to do that. If you want to disagree with me, that’s obviously your right.
Also, as far as accepting and coping, I have completely done that. I have never stopped playing MM and just do the best I can. That does not mean that I do not wish Blizzard would bring back Lone Wolf.
You can have your opinion. You can have chatGPT’s opinion, you have whatever feeling you want.
And likewise my and the vast majority can have their feelings about your opinion and thats its a hair splitting stupid opinion of someone going out of their way to ignore and the miss the point as hard as humanly possible because their opinion has no basis in reality and relies solely on scenarios that dont exist.
You can feel whatever you want about that, it remains reality.
i dont think it is helping you, its giving you junk info that you think is correct. its also the general look of it. if you want to be taken seriously then you shouldnt be letting something of poor quality dictate your thoughts.
t his is like, elementary level essay writing ethics and optics. if anything this is actively worse than plagiarizing from wikipedia
the issue i have is that the hero talent tree Sentinel is unusable is you have a pet, and The idea that im forced to be a dark ranger (puke) because i prefer to have a pet is horrible
They wanted
They hate talents that feel “mandatory”
They optimized for spectator fantasy, not player feel