20 person raiding is only optional for select top guilds. For average players finding 20 people to raid mythic with is an undaunting task for officers and recruiters. It is almost a full time job cycling out those who for numerous reasons may not be the right fit. EX: raid times, personalities, class, burnout, etc.
I know that Blizzard devs have said that tuning around a 10 person roster would be very difficult, however I believe that we would see an increase in player activity as many people have stopped trying to raid mythic after a few weeks due to the “roster boss”.
Bringing back 10 person raids would breathe new life into the game as many people stop raiding after achieving AoTC due to the guild not having enough players.
Amen.
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10 man Mythic is too hard to balance and if it was flex-raid guilds would sit there and mathematically figure out the optimal amount of players to make the fight easier. Like bring 14 people this fight and 17 this fight, etc.
Also, with a 10 man raid you would need to basically min-max optimize the raid for buffs because the 20 man raid is designed around having every buff possible. 10 man Mythic raids would end up becoming meta stacked comps.
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20 main raids are an outdated thing. Blizzard keeps talking about meeting the players where they are at, instead of making the player fit into blizzards mold.
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Agreed, however if they go back to having multiple classes bring the same buff, you can ultimately get the same thing 20 person offers. Often times you are stacking 1-3 classes anyways in a 20, so there wouldn’t be much of a change.
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It’s not really outdated though if 1000s of guilds are still utilizing it.
It’s hard to get 20 people to show up let alone 5 people for an M+ push team.
This is my point though. If it is already hard to find a group of 5, 20 is almost impossible. And most of the time you are rotating new people in and out from week to week and have to have them reprog fights. Im just stating that 10 person raiding would be far easier to maintain for the longevity of the game and the player base.
Why does it matter if people figure out optimal number? There is currently an optimal number of 20 because it’s the only one that exists.
If there was flex then people like me could do the (potentially) suboptimal amount of 10 so I could have fun. While the serious people do their optimal roster.
Its already challenging to keep a consistent 5 man with a shared schedule for keys lol.
As for balancing around raid buffs maybe blizz could do something crazy and not make it so difficult mathematically and just keep mythic raid focused on mechanic difficulty.
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This is my point exactly. There are some of us in guilds that like me are at 5/9M and hard stuck because every week we have to find 1-2 people to rejoin because for one reason or another the previous people stopped raiding.
What? That hasn’t been a thing since legion. Currently as it stands you only have 4-5 available slots outside of raid buffs.
10 slots is too many. they should have 8 person raids.
The actual number required isn’t the problem. It’s lockouts that are the problem.
You wouldn’t have to spend all that time recruiting and replacing players if you could just pug to fill gaps. But mythic lockouts are preventing you from doing that. Get rid of the lockouts and you get rid of the problem. Make mythic raids loot locked instead of raid ID locked and the problem is solved.
Blizzard has already said that it’s impossible to balance mythic for multiple raid sizes, so that isn’t going to happen. There is, however, no reason at all for legacy raid lockouts to still be a thing. They could get rid of them tomorrow and it would have no effect on their ability to balance content.
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Yeah and up until this tier, you just would double or triple up on the top spec instead of rounding the specs out. So if you gave multiple classes the same buff and lowered the amount to 5 or so, you could easily make it the way it is now, just a lower number of players.
It’s not just buffs though, it’s all the extra utility like roars freedons MD gateway grips / add control.
10 man raiding was the most fun I’ve ever had in this game. The only reason Blizzard deleted it was because it was killing the 25 man scene. The most popular raid config in the game was deleted to prop up 20 man raid size as a compromise. Blizz thought 10 man guilds would just merge together, and the 25 man guilds are used to benching people anyway.
I highly doubt 10 mans will ever be back. The world first raiders have the dev’s ear, and their opinion is much more impactful than the majority. The devs who balance raids don’t care about fun. All you have to do is start a 10 man vs 20 man balance argument, and you can filibuster the debate indefinitely.
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Well, they want to move away from people using massive amounts of WA’s for the fights, so make the fights a little less complicated or needing these utilities and that would solve both problems.
This is something I’ve been thinking about for a number of weeks now. My last guild fell apart early last tier because every time someone new would join to fill up a missing spot another would quit. Literally couldn’t keep ahead of the cycle. Eventually everybody just stopped showing up out of frustration. I didn’t once bother or even think of joining another guild after that because I don’t want to put up with that situation again. I’ve just been doing M+ purely through pugging to get fully geared and watch the raid cinematics on Youtube. I mean, raids are only fun when there’s zero issues with attendance, and M+ is easier to get geared through, so I’m probably just not bothering with raids again unless they lower the size. That’s coming from someone that absolutely despises M+ and hates its mere existence (mostly just the timer I hate though, honestly), but it has a superior gearing curve and it can be pugged easily, so why bother? The fun of a successful raid just isn’t worth that potential roster headache again. I’m not so obstinate that I need 10 man either. I’d totally settle for 15. 20+ just seems like way too much to me.
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Her’es the problem I have with their argument about it being “impossible” to balance.
We had 10 and 25 man Normal and Heroic raids back before mythic existed. This seemed to be just fine for them to balance and manage. It wasn’t until the introduction of mythic that we got the 10 difficulties we have now.
I think it’s time to revisit if mythic shoiuld still even be a thing.
Like why not just have LFR, Heroic and Mythic?.
LFR could be the one that is “hard set” to a specific number, but heroic and mythic could be flex.
ALso, LFR’s difficulty could be on par with what normal is now. I’ve never understood the point of “tourist” mode anyway.
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Im not sure LFR Mythic could be a thing. They would have to do some serious tuning. That’s essentially just pugging and hoping you get a good group. I definitely like the train of thought though. Just some way to make it so people aren’t getting burned out on the other aspects of running a guild. Playing the game with your friends is what makes you come back. It just seems like every time I look around at other guild that are middle of the pack they have the same issues. I definitely don’t have a great answer to solve this problem, but it just seems like a smaller raid size would make it easier and accomplish the goals Blizzard has stated they want (lower WA usage and have more longevity of play time). I am fortunate enough to have about 7 players that i enjoy playing with and we play almost daily whether its WoW or another game. Trying to find a 20 person raid to fit us is almost impossible and when we try to start a roster we get so burned out within a month of recruiting that we just end up giving up on the dream of returning to CE. I made this forum as a hope that we as a community could come up with a way that would show Blizz that a smaller roster size would accomplish their goals and allow players to play for more months between tiers.
no, sorry i meant LFR, Heroic and Mythic. Three difficulties instead of 4.
LFR is hard set to wahtever the max is and its difficulty is turned up to what Normal is now.
Heroic and Mythic remain “flex” and each are harder…etc.
I think the thing I’m really struggling with (which might go against what you’re saying a bit) is why is just being an AOTC-focused guild who takes a break during a content drought such a bad thing? I guess I just don’t get why people want to insist on playing every week the entire season? I really enjoy the breaks from organized raiding that come after 3-4 kills of the final boss on heroic.
I’m also not someone who just unsubs during that time because there’s always something to do, it’s not like I’m so bored I can’t log in.