Good luck holding threat with your cotank when you’re a whipping 30% behind in damage to Prot War/DK and 15% behind Guardian Druid/VDH.
3 Likes
You really needed to start a separate thread to whine about BrM damage in?
I had my warrior blasting 2.2 mil on the 5 target dummies and my monk only at 1.4 mil. I didn’t test single target though.
To be fair, monk loses a lot of damage when its not tanking actively (Counterstrike + Tigers Palm accounts for at least 8-10% of our damage, but its all single target)
I disagree it’s not fair! 
But yeah, brew seems like to it loses even more relative damage.
On the bright side paladin seems to be low on damage now. But I only tested templar because you can’t solo test light smith and templar is what wowhead is suggesting now.
I think that face palm should be a 100% chance for a 200% increase or scale up with mastery or something.
Where we really lack is single target damage that’s not tied to a cooldown.
It’d be nice to be able to give some good solid palms to the face.
Or revert back to legion face palm. Leave it. (50% chance for 300% increase)
But honestly I think that 100% for 200% or 50% + mastery% would be better. What we really need is consistency. We have way too much. RNG in our damage.
While they are at it, make it count as 200% energy usage for shado pan so we can actually get some procs.
1 Like
Yes haha. Honestly I think that should be a talent in the shadow pan tree for brew
Should add that in one vs many for brew. We do already do double for keg smash so that’s something
I did some 5 target dummy testing with current set. This was done over a 10m40s fight with the standard M+ build using Shado-pan
Right now, these are my numbers
Keg Smash total damage: 395.17M | 39% overall
Keg Smash Reset: 4.27767354598 per minute
Keg Smash CPM with tier set: 12.0075046904
Keg Smash CPM without tier set: 7.72983114446
Average Keg Smash Damage: 612k
Total damage from Keg Smash resets: 27.907m damage
Calculating the loss of the 20% we get:
(395.17M - 27.907) / 1.2 = 306.0525
We’re also likely to take Salsabim’s Strength over Scalding brew, so another 20% lost here as well
306.0525 / 1.2 = 255.04375
Leading to an overall loss in keg smash damage by -140.12625M damage in Keg Smash, or just about 14% damage loss.
Calculating the new tier set with higher item level is a bit trickier, so assuming same item level for now.
I had 14.28 CPM on Blackout Kick. New tier set is a 2ppm with a 2.5x amp on Blackout Kick.
Blackout Kick damage: 174.92M
Blackout Kick average damage: 383k
Blackout Kick average with 2.5x proc: 957.5k
This calculation is simpler, we just add 2cpm of the 957.5k over the 10.66 minute fight
Blackout Kick proc damage over fight: 10.20695M
New Blackout Kick Damage: 185.12695
Charred Passions is going to have a 100% uptime. Currently, I have it at about 50% uptime (okay, 49% but we’ll round up) This means our damage from Charred Passions can be basically doubled, and we’ll also add in the 2 cpm of buffed blackout kick in there.
Current Charred Passions: 42.66m
Expected Charred Passions: 85.32m
Added procs from Blackout Kick: 5.103475m
Total: 90.423475m
New set + build: 47.763475m (charred passions) + 10.20695m = 57.970425m
Taken together, the old tier set gave 140.12625m damage over a 10m40s fight while the new set will give 57.97m damage over the same period, assuming similar play. This represents a loss of roughly 128k DPS in a 5 target situation, or approximately an 8.1% dps decrease going from current tier set to new tier set.
I did not add in the 15% damage amp from new tier set, nor did I add in the 3% damage amp from current tier set since they are roughly equal in terms of value.
I also did not add or calculate the CDR from keg smash resets towards special delivery, since I did not use any purifying brews during target dummy testing (didn’t take any damage)
Overall, I’m a bit disappointed. We’re losing a lot of AOE damage in exchange for a bit more prio damage – which is overall going to be worse. These numbers will probably be skewed even more in favor of our current tier set in situations where you have more than 5 targets – eg a typical double pack in M+
Finally, I just want to note that after the tank tuning changes in 11.1, Brewmaster is currently one of the lowest damage output tanks in raid and in M+. Without further tuning, we will fall even further behind other tanks.
So what do we do from here?
Well, a number of things need to be changed to stay competitive with other tanks. Our AOE damage needs to be increased, our overall self sustain needs to be increased for M+, and our utility in M+ needs to be increased. Several suggestions over the course of many expansions have fallen on deaf ears, but we’ll try once more and hope that Blizzard actually listens this time
Self Sustain/Survivability
Celestial Brew
Good for tankbusters, disappears completely during M+ trash pulls
Suggestion 1: Increase absorb amount
Suggestion 2: Introduce Mighty Pour, increasing Brewmaster’s armor by 100% for 8 seconds
Suggestion 3: Rework into a 75% damage reduction instead of 100%
Weapons of Order
Currently the clunkiest of all tank cooldowns and requires a 19-step opener to use efficiently. This is attrocious.
Suggestion 1: Remove debuff on enemies, bake it into the cooldown and balance it this way
Suggestion 2: Remove stacking debuff, making it a 9 second debuff that increases damage taken by 32% for 9 seconds whenever target is Keg Smashed or Rising Sun Kicked
Suggestion 3: Significantly increase the mastery gain and remove the damage amp component, turning it into a strong M+ cooldown
Blackout Combo
Currently, there is only ONE optimal way to spend a blackout combo, and several suboptimal ways to spend it
Suggestion 1: Buff the Breath of Fire, Keg Smash and Purifying Brew combinations
Suggestion 2: Add more interactions such as Rising Sun Kick for an 8s Rushing Jade Wind
AOE Skills
Breath of Fire, Spinning Crane Kick, and Rushing Jade Wind do embarassingly low amounts of damage in AOE. On retail, Breath of Fire is responsible for less than 3% of my overall DPS. Spinning Crane Kick does less damage than Tiger’s Palm even in a 5-target scenario.
Suggestion 1: Buff the damage of these abilities significantly.
Suggestion 2: Give a passive way to generate Rushing Jade Wind, which was a signature Brewmaster ability since Mists of Pandaria
Self Sustain/Survivability
Brewmaster is known for being the “raid tank” because they don’t have to press a cooldown for Physical tankbusters. However, raid balance at the moment is not threatening to tanks whatsoever, and every tank has some sort of low-cooldown mitigation ability to handle tankbusters just fine without stagger.
Brewmaster is one of two tanks that has very little self sustain. Our orb spawn rate is low and we require a healer. This would be fine if the ethos of “Tanks need healers” was true and the paradigm they set with The War Within was followed. However, they have backtracked on that paradigm with BDK, VDH, Prot Paladin and even Guardian druid.
On top of all this, we have the lowest health pools of any tank.Suggestion 1: Significantly increase stagger amount while in 5 man content
Suggestion 2: Significantly increase the spawn rate of Gift of the Ox orbs in 5 man content
Suggestion 3: Give a talent choice for Keg of the Heavens, at a reduced effectiveness
Suggestion 4: Give a Blackout Combo interaction that gives Brewmaster healing based on Fire damage done.
Utility
Brewmaster has the lowest amount of utility compared to other tanks, if we define utility as the ability to help a group survive and defeat a pack of enemies. This definition includes AOE stops, silences, grips, off-healing, damage reduction cooldowns, passive raid buffs, and of course, aoe stuns and single target stuns
Suggestion 1: Ring of Peace talent node choice that AOE silences/disarms enemies inside the ring
Suggestion 2: Invoke Nizuao now provides the effects of Avert Harm to 5 targets
2 Likes
Yeah but that’s flurry charge generation, which is never an issue capping out 10 flurry charges takes like 5 seconds max. I was referring to energy spent, I’d much rather have it count as double energy spent or add something in where tiger palm counts as double energy spent so we can actually get the flurry charges to go off rather than sitting on 10 full charges forever while we struggle so spend the energy to activate them.
Raidbot is now live. You can see for yourself the damage loss.
In a 2m fight, the new tier set is a -1.9% loss against 5 targets.
In a 2m fight (typical M+ pull), new tier set is -2.5% loss against 10 targets
h ttps://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/h4Ld23qftsfJLGfvAZLqet
h ttps://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/51h4vy2EoFE8tMyogET2Qh
I would like them to just get rid of WoO completely and replace it with something else. Not only is it weak and not a particularly fun button to push, from a class fantasy/flavor standpoint it makes no sense. It should never have lasted beyond SL covenants. I’ve said it several times before, but this class is just a disorganized mess of a dozen different “ancient asian man” archetypes, they couldn’t even focus on one region of Asia. They need to trim it down to one per spec and focus.
1 Like
Yeah I agree. It’s a pretty boring ability. It’s kind of difficult to wrap your head around. It’s not thematic. It’s shadowlands crap.
The green glow is neat, they can reuse that animation but they really need to work on making brewmaster easier to wrap your head around, and the abilities a little simpler, easier to tune.
2 Likes
I was doing some 10-12s on ptr and was losing threat again. Rets sub and Elly ripping threat with their burst.
Sha had a nice little video on ways to grab threat.
Ret and windwalker always do have that problem though … and honestly that might be their problem, they are unloading their burst too early.
1 Like
Thanks. I’m probably going Windwalker and back to Veng for tanking. Brew is fun but it’s frustrating with the lack of utility for m+. Windwalker is looking pretty good with the changes.
I’ll still watch the video. Never know how things shake out.
Yeah haha. Windwalker is fun. I bounce around … brew is admittedly my weak spot among the three specs. Trying to fix that this season!