I am a new player to boomkin and am liking the class for the most part but don’t understand why moonfire isn’t like sunfire (that I know of). Why doesn’t it hit all nearby targets? Am I missing a talent somewhere I just don’t see?
If it’s intentional that means (according to the guides) that I have to spend most of the time just dotting mobs up while they die so it takes too long to get damage through. At least that’s how it feels. Also dotting individual mobs feels tedious and I’m pretty sure other classes (dk, spriest, etc…) have ways to spread all their dots with one AOE move.
Anyway, I’m new too boomkin but I do think it looks awesome . 10/10 animations.
Moonfire is the way it is because it’s always been that way. It’s changed very little in 20 years.
Sunfire is more complicated. When they added lore for the Tauren druids, they made An’she into the sun similar to Elune being the moon.
Sunfire replaced the original Insect Swarm which is still a sore spot for me since they were effectively the same, but Insect Swarm was much more class thematic. What galls even more is that Insect Swarm is available to every spec but Moonkin and Bear.
It 100% should just be merged into one spell, It would help the long boring\annoying ramp issue so much
Moonfire and sunfire dont interact with anything at all, its just fire and forget. If you merged them into one spell it would just reduce bloat and reduce the slow ramp time and would just be better for the spec.
There’s a talent to have Moonfire hit two targets instead of one, but Blizzard intentionally designed Moonfire to not splash onto adjacent mobs. Originally, Balance only had Moonfire. There was no Sunfire, and Insect Swarm was a Restoration spell that knocked you out of Moonkin Form when cast. Insect Swarm was moved to the Balance talent tree in The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King and replaced by Sunfire in Cataclysm as a second DoT that was only castable during Solar Eclipse. It wasn’t until Legion that Sunfire became its own independent spell that cleaved onto all nearby targets. Moonfire has always been one (and with talents two) target spell. I doubt this will change because Blizzard is big on the two spells having unique functions.
Yeah the ramp feels pretty jank. It sucks when the mobs are constantly moving / dying and all the health bars are just moving all over the place. Makes it hard to individually dot things.
Then on top of that stuff is already dead by the time I get my dots up. I know it’s probably because it’s just m0 atm, but still lol.
Like I said other specs have ways to apply all their dots, why should it be different for this class!
I would love for it to be one spell like you said or they give us an aoe spell with a short cd (5-10 sec) that applies both even.
Either way that is the main thing that is turning me away from the spec. Otherwise it feels and looks awesome (regardless of it’s current power )
Or just remove sunfire, make moonfire do astral damage and have sunfires effect of hitting all mobs within 10-15 yards.
I’m so tired of this fake dotting. At least afflic locks/spriests have some interaction with their dots and have other spells that automatically apply the dots too.
I think stellar flare is the one that should change really, it’s supposed to be our equivalent of unstable affliction but it does less dmg than moon/sunfire even when in eclipse. An idea would be to make it instant cast and cost 50 ap with a cd of like 30s that puts all 3 dots in an aoe of like 10 yards of the target, this would fix so many problems with our aoe spread and ramp up while also making stellar flare something we think of taking even in pvp and probably still needs a dmg buff to its own dmg but that’s a whole other topic.
Yeah I’ve noticed that! But even if they just matched the current it would still be a great improvement for moonfire. But if they increased the radius as well it would be a great change :).
Obviously, careful decisions regarding the direction of the class, spec – talents, abilities, mechanics, and synergy/cohesion have to be made… And, I’d say, RE-made. I’m eager, and rather confident that we may finally see a meaningful, ‘modernizing’ rework to the Balance Druid come the Midnight expansion 12.0 of the WorldSoul Saga.
I’ve written about this several times before, but I’ll only regard my thoughts on Moonfire and Sunfire. I remember when Moonfire changed to Sunfire with Eclipses… and I remember when we’ve had both…
Personally, I think it’s O.K. if we keep both and they have slightly different functions. HOWEVER, that may no longer be my preferred state for these spells, and I’ll try to explain why.
GCDs (Global CoolDown’s): While I thought that they worked just fine in Legion and the first half of BfA – as cohesive parts of the rotation… It’s come to pass from Shadowlands and intro Dragonflight (and beyond into The War Within so far) that they don’t REALLY feel meaningful to press individually.
WHY is that?
The game has generally, MASSIVELY sped up in recent years. Mechanical gameplay is just too fast IMO (particularly in PvP). The issue with that is that, in balancing the spells:
They don’t hit hard enough! This goes for both their instant and DoT effects.
They’re too easily dispellable.
Unrewarding – From Mastery requirements, to needing to ‘dump’ Astral Power after applying or spreading them and before entering Eclipse, just doesn’t feel good. I think this goes to show that the ECLIPSE mechanic we got after BfA is just too clunky, NO MATTER how many tier bonuses and talent attempts are made to make it feel less so.
One of these options can be tried:
Hopefully, as we’ll get new, revised mechanics, these two spells will become more impactful on one or only a few targets. I do, however, think there may be SOMEWHAT of an issue with how they scale on massive packs / Epic BGs + Starfall.
Whereas I like them being more condensed, they STILL sometimes don’t feel worth to press in certain scenarios.
I REALLY like the 11.0.5 direction of the LEFT side of the Balance SPEC Talent Tree – Faster Ticing rates = higher chances to proc Moon / Fury / Mushroom talents, more slows applied etc.
HOWEVER –
The problem with procs is that they’re random.
There’s STILL not enough payoff for double-dotting between each Eclipse, it feels extremely scripted, and clunky – sometimes even time-wasting or outright risky when you don’t need that spread…
What’s the SOLUTION, though?!
As with anything – OPTIONS. Via talents, PvP talents, etc.
Option A. TL;DR capitalizing more on the “stronger but shorter DoTs” trend – Starfall could make them “Astral(ly) Burn”, similar to Afflock acceleration mechanics.
Option B. – Probably better longterm(?) provided a spec re-design AWAY from Eclipse:
– Moonfire remains a single target, or becomes a short-radius AoE DoT that applies and spreads itself from the primary target. Deals more damage, but remains relatively long and has chances to proc cool things like beams, moons, or crescents.
Regains two-handed animation with more ‘weight’, as you’re summoning celestial powers.
– Sunfire either becomes a low-cooldown, (MAYBE oGCD – which might also be clunky…), faster “burn” DoT…
– OR a different spell altogether – maybe it could have Glyphs – Insect Swarm, Moonlight / Sunfire Seekers, or even Minor Moon. Perhaps this spell can then apply the additional DoT and spread effects on the targets of Moonfire, or a slow, etc.
The aim with these ideas is to make the kit even more cohesive.
Though, it’s crucial to remember just changing the DoTs WON’T be enough. Tuning will never fully solve it, either.
Eclipse – the ramp-up to it, and it’s “lock-in”, is the problem.
On that end, perhaps Empowerments could return, but there could also be an easier Eclipse mechanic, where using two on Wrath in a row Empowers MOONFIRE, and vice-versa.
Literally anything goes. Cool, creative ideas that reduce clunkiness and bloat in the rotation, increase PLAYER AGENCY by giving more “weight” to each spell (ala start of BfA IMO, at least numerically they felt infinitely better to press! but maybe that’s just because Eclipse wasn’t there and Mastery wasn’t a DoT-to-‘empower’ conditional. I had much more fun because you could CHOOSE spells to befit the situation, and they could be used much more creatively than today)
I hope our spec mechanics will be improved in the near future
While we wait for the spec to be reborn from its Lunar Eclipse in Midnight 12.0…
Keep on discussing, analysing, suggesting & reinforcing those feedback loops so that the team will get a better idea of what the issues & player desires around Balance Druid are!
Wow! I love the full write up :). I agree with most of this for sure! I haven’t played it enough to give valid feedback, but you bring up more issues with the spec as a whole that should be addressed for sure!
Oh, why thanks And I appreciate your warm feedback…
However… this isn’t my full analysis nor complete vision for the spec whatsoever,
merely a shorter address trying to pin-point and tackle the DoT issue with SOME ideas.
Of course, anyone can come up with more…
But what’s crucial to me is to hammer home the point that the ability kit for a(ny) spec should feel as cohesive, fun, and given to player-agency as possible… And that these changes CAN be pushed for if we can articulate and discuss together what the issues are, what the changes that have lead to them are as well, and what other ideas may look like… I think that’s the way to drive the game to be better through our feedback
Having to:
Apply our relatively weak DoTs, one GCD each, PER target…
Only to then have to empty our AP, then to use 2 of the opposite fillers to enter 15 sec of Eclipse…
AND/THEN
Only for the mobs to die, the boss to fly or the enemy players to get dispelled… Or for you to get CC’ed…
Is so boring and unrewarding and frankly, out of date and weak compared to most other specs.
Boomkin should be more than a tagging simulator or a noodle-throwing game (Builder-spam or Spender-spam for 10 sec)
We need to bring the Boom back in the party, fuller, more fun, and more impactful (PvE) or menacing (PvP) than ever!
**This DOESN’T MEAN an immortal chicken, or one that fries enemies on sight…
But rather, just an iteration that’s more fun and skill-promoting to play and more accessibility is always nice in an MMO.
What that exactly will look like? It’s up to the team responsible, of course… but it’s also up to us to help voice that direction as always. We’ve already received recent indication that the spec is being looked into… But we need a much more profound address. Here’s to hoping that happens for Midnight After all… the Lunar aesthetics and lore are quite strongly hinted there, as well as a “re-unification of the Elves”… So what’s a better time than now (then) to give the ol’ Druids some love?
If I could double heart this I would!! I fully agree with:
Boomkin should be more than a tagging simulator or a noodle-throwing game (Builder-spam or Spender-spam for 10 sec)
Again I’m new to the spec, but other specs feel a bit more cohesive and like you said, “spec should feel as cohesive, fun, and given to player-agency as possible”.
There’s no spec I love in terms of lore, aesthetics and abilities more than Boomkin. I’ve been playing it for over a decade… and it just hurts to feel so clunky and outdated, indeed. The fact we received no substantial revision for The War Within was very concerning and underwhelming.
I want to put a disclaimer for people though – I know there were plenty of issues with the BfA Empowerments gameplay as well… In one of my recent posts where I detailed some of my initial ideas for a rework, I offered to renew upon that system as well… So it’s not that I think a mere regression to older mechanics is what we need.
But the point remains – it feels bad to have become MORE clunky over time…
And what’s sad / funny is…
That I’m not sure the team has/had any real vision of what Balance Druid IS even supposed to be over the past couple of years.
A. I’m pretty sure the Druid Dev quit some years ago… and that somebody else was asked to re-design it, but I could just be recollecting misinfo here, nor does it matter really in the long run IF we’re fixed via better feedback loops…
B. While I absolutely love the 11.0.5 Spec talent tree changes (left side for DoT time and procs), again, it’s still only the beginning. I think that from both PvE and PvP players, a high consensus on this forum has been registered on a few fronts:
Eclipse is unfun and way too cumbersome
We’re too squishy (our recovery is actually bugged IMO with Frenzied Regen, at least in PvP, as our Armor was nerfed there as well IIRC and Celestial Guardian, Nature’s Vigil were also nerfed. Feral even has it better now lol
the Dragonflight Hybrid Healing change made Regrowth-spamming feel as bad as our DPS)
We’re not sure whether we’re supposed to be more oriented towards DoT-spamming, building/spending or other mechanics… And the trees, while hybridic, can be quite confusing and create a “jack of all trades, master of none” issue… And I’d say this also really goes for the Druid Class talent tree, unfortunately – even after its revision before release.
So, I hope that until we are eventually (hopefully / copium?) reworked, that tuning will aim to address these issues next
I’ve said it in various places here before: Moonfire and Sunfire being two separate buttons is not as interesting as one might initially think.
Yes, the spells apply differently:
Twin Moons makes Moonfire strike your primary target and a random second target.
Sunfire, with the Improved Sunfire talent, makes the DoT spread in an 8-yard radius to all targets.
But aside from how they apply, it doesn’t change the fact that, other than being from different spell schools, they are essentially the same spell. They’re pretty basic damage-over-time abilities with no extra effects other than their respective Mastery interactions.
First of all, Balance Druid Mastery needs to change again. Requiring our DoTs to be able to do 100% of our potential damage on top of maintaining our Eclipse uptime and contending with our Astral Power just feels overboard. It’s not “complicated,” per se, but it’s definitely tedious and “complex” for the sake of being complex. It contributes to a clunky and overall unmodernized feel.
Everyone always points out, “Balance Druid has always had two DoTs!” Okay, sure, fair observation. But back in the day, when it was Moonfire and Insect Swarm, at least Insect Swarm was both graphically and mechanically different from Moonfire. Insect Swarm wasn’t just a flat damage-over-time effect—it used to:
Do damage over time.
Lower the target’s physical and ranged hit chance (back when hit mattered).
THAT was interesting. This is a huge reason I find Sunfire so boring and the added GCD so tedious. It’s just orange Moonfire.
How would I change things?
I would make it so whenever we were in Lunar Eclipse, our DoT was Moonfire. In Solar Eclipse, it would change to Sunfire. (In no Eclipse? Default to Moonfire.) This would be similar to how it was in WoD.
EXCEPT!!! Instead of both DoTs being able to exist on the target like back in the day, I would change it so:
Moonfire overwrites Sunfire when pressed in Lunar Eclipse.
Sunfire overwrites Moonfire when pressed in Solar Eclipse.
(Moonfire would overwrite Sunfire in no Eclipse as well)
This way, we wouldn’t need to micromanage putting both DoTs on every target, which is the issue we’re basically dealing with now, and also keeps Sunfire in the game thematically.
THEN, in a perfect world, I would:
Remove Twin Moons and make Improved Sunfire work for both Moonfire and Sunfire.
Though, if Twin Moons stays as is for the Moonfire effect (and Improved Sunfire for Sunfire), I wouldn’t be as bothered since we’d only be dealing with one DoT per Eclipse state anyway.
This condensing of Moonfire and Sunfire would be a good thing, in my opinion, because it would open up a large amount of GCDs, which would mean Stellar Flare could feel better to press for people who actually enjoy DoT gameplay, making it become an ability to actually consider taking.
Why Stellar Flare?
It has dispel protection.
It does Astral damage.
It’s visually appealing.
I would remove the cast time of this spell to let it take the place of Sunfire for people who want to reintroduce a second DoT into their rotation. But I would, of course, want Stellar Flare to remain a talent choice. Those who prefer less DoT gameplay would lean into burst from Starsurge and such.
What would I do about Sunfire for the other Druid specs?
Honestly, I would make Sunfire a Balance Druid-exclusive spell (Sunfire gone from the class tree). The other specs would still have Moonfire (of course), and you’d buff Moonfire to stand on its own for Resto Druids who like “Owlweaving” gameplay over Catweaving. Moonfire would spread in a radius like Improved Sunfire does in my perfect world, but Twin Moons on its own isn’t THAT bad, so I could go either way with how it applies.
EDIT:
Wanted to tack on in here— change Waning Twilight to apply after only 2 DoT effects are up on the target. We’d need that as a result of hypothetically losing 1 DoT spell.
Or delete Waning Twilight altogether because it’s a boring modifier talent that most people let apply passively with Astral Smolder as is, and bake the 6% damage into our kit… lol.
These are AMAZING points, and great ideas (coming from you – that’s nothing new! )
I’m glad to see my sentiments reinforced!
I think this analysis, and the batch of ideas you gave there addresses the issues perfectly – reducing bloat, while offering talent OPTIONS to “complicate” the spec for those who want that. For those who prefer a simpler, more streamlined rotation… Indeed, choosing passive talents that enhance the core kit should 100% be viable alternatives (and the “default” via the ‘recommended build’ for levelling and open-world content for new players). This would then open up a lot of GCD window, as you mentioned… for more variety and interesting new talents to choose from and tinker with
I feel the slow ramp up as much as the next guy. It sucks in mythics to be applying dots and by the time I’m ready to start blowing things up with starfire, they’re already blowed up.
Admittedly the elune’s chosen tree helps, with fury of elune up on every pull, which builds AP quickly.
But simultaneously it feels bad bc now I feel more incentivized to put moonfire on everything for the free fury of elunes. I think my point though is the ramp up doesn’t feel AS bad when playing elune’s chosen. To me.
However I don’t want to see sunfire nor moonfire go away. I like them! And though I missed insect swarm at first, they’re leaning into the cosmos themes, and I don’t mind the sunfire reskin.
Tbh, the only change I think is needed is in wild mushroom. Give us a reason to use it. Let its explosion apply a dot that counts as both.
OR make moonfire the one that applies to all targets and wild mushroom apply sunfire to all targets hit.
Specially with this 11.0.5 change, when sunfire has a (hopefully high) chance to grow a wild mushroom. It would be a cascade of explosions. How lovely
100%. I agree that Moonfire gaining a bunch of procs: moons, beams etc… Certainly helps, and I’m glad Sunfire is also getting the shrooms baked into it as well, since it hasn’t felt as good to press.
As for the ramp-up, well… Now that Starfall is becoming baseline again, perhaps it could “Burn” DoT effects (accelerate them), giving us a better cleave pseudo-bursting option…
As far as Eclipse is concerned, though… I’d say the issue remains. On some targets, it’s not even worth DoTing, although it definitely is in the VAST majority of cases, and should be done as a rule of thumb to generate AP and grant full Mastery benefits for Starsurge dmg. That’s why I wish the Mastery would be changed again… and that Elune’s Chosen will also be changed, buffed, or given something new to help with the smoothness of the rotation, because apparently Keeper of the Grove is significantly ahead on some content, let alone has more QoL baked into it…
. 10/10 animations.
)
And I appreciate your warm feedback…
and frankly, out of date and weak compared to most other specs.
or a noodle-throwing game (Builder-spam or Spender-spam for 10 sec)
After all… the Lunar aesthetics and lore are quite strongly hinted there, as well as a “re-unification of the Elves”… So what’s a better time than now (then) to give the ol’ Druids some love?
)