I don’t think many people really consider Calia a Horde character. She was only introduced to the game in Legion (priests only), and from that point on has been a strictly Alliance character.
I’ve played this toon since Vanilla, and I can safely say that I feel no connection to Calia. Admittedly, I’m not a fan of her, and would much rather see another Forsaken in charge instead of her.
In Before the Storm a few things happened.
Calia came to SW and was recognized for what she was, heir to lordaeron. Anduin suggested she go get some big army and storm the city. She declined.
They had the meeting between the forsaken and humans and Calia attended in secret. She didn’t barge in on a white horse and tell them all she was there to retake her land. No lol. She went there to observe. When stuff went sour… Calia was recognized and things went to worse as Sylvanas freaked.
Calia told the Forsaken she will protect them and they can be reunited with their families. The Forsaken said this (paraphrasing a bit). “Sorry my princess, but Sylvanas is our Queen.” One Forsaken wanted to go, but was afraid to, however he still recognized what Calia was.
The Forsaken never held any malice over the Menethils. Just Arthas. If they did hold malice that tribute to King Terenas outside of the Undercity would have been removed.
I don’t think the Forsaken NPCs hate Calia, especially if even after all these years they recognize her and still show respect toward what she is.
I think the idea of a desolate council would be good with Calia involved in that. I also think it’d be cool if she was the outright ruler. But I understand the sentiment from Forsaken players, even though I disagree since this is a fantasy games and monarchies are a thing.
I hope Horde/Alliance follow different characters and Bolvar plays more of a “main” role in addition to those characters instead of being the only thing we get lol.
Calia does feel forced and we haven’t even met Talia. Unless you play a priest, Horde players don’t even meet Calia till 8.3 and even then the connection feels really weak because the most developed forsaken characters are either dead or with Sylvanas now. Hell even Lilian Voss got showhorned in that the expansion, doing a complete 180 on her attitude to raising undead. She hated it with a passion right up to BfA but suddenly is helping us do it.
Horde players wouldn’t even know who Talia is at this point. She would be coming completely out of left field.
Build connections takes time but the problem is, Blizzard never lays the groundwork for those connection to be built for Horde players which is why our involvement in the story so often feels tacked on.
I wouldn’t be bothered by either but it doesnt even need to be that simple. All I really want is the sense that the Horde is involved in a way which isn’t villainous. Vol’jin and Bwonsamdi’s involvement is very much appreciated here. It sounds like Bwonsamdi helps us getting souls out of the Maw too which is nice. The issue will be if he has a cameo while leveling and then that is all the horde gets for the rest of the expansion.
We need our own connections to feel invested. It was my biggest gripe with Wrath. It should have been a strong forsaken narrative but they are completely sidelined after Wrathgate and it all about Garrosh and orcs and feels completely disconnected to the story of the expansion.
I think it’s because Blizzard may be working under the assumption all players read the books, which they don’t. There is surely a disconnect and lots of lore left out of the game to be packed into those books.
Anywho I hope Horde gets more horde champions to run around with in Shadowlands. I’d hate for it to be Bolvar.
I do realize that and know of the events you talk of, but from what iv seen forsaken players post, and how I myself feel about the situation, She has NOT shared the forsaken’s struggles.
One her coming off the heels of an alliance character, and her heavy alliance affiliations throughout BfA feel extremely forced for her to all the sudden go horde, to have her all the sudden be the most notable ‘forsaken character’, is odd to say the least.
Second, many forsaken were rejected, and had to fight claw, tooth and nail to survive. She was not revived how the forsaken were, but by a naaru instead. She was instead immediately accepted, and had adequate accommodations via the alliance/priest order halls.
Its not really about how the NPCs feel, but holy moly was she forced upon the forsaken players as their next savior. I really wish I could find a few people’s posts who play forsaken, they outlined why she felt forced upon them and unrelatable, much better than I could.
Even having read the books she still feels forced into being a horde NPC rather than it feeling natural. Almost the entirety of her story is alliance based. Her and derrick all the sudden nopeing outta the alliance to come to the horde was jarring.
I don’t see how she’s more forced than any other new NPC added that plays a major role.
I would like her to have a role in Shadowlands and it would be nice to ease her into it. She has not been forced since she hasn’t been declared queen. It’s not like she has a title under name “Queen of Lordaeron”. She’s just Calia Menethill now.
I agree that she shouldn’t just be thrown into the horde story. I would really like for her to work more with the Horde. I mean look at how Lillian Voss interacted with her, a Forsaken character that players have come to know and love. “My lady.” She still recognizes Calia as something. Not Queen. But something. I’d really like if it Calia is put into the Forsaken story, maybe somewhere in Shadowlands, and she works more with Lillian and other Forsaken NPCs.
It would be cool if we each get a faction important character to roam around with instead of just Magni/Bolvar.
I feel I should add, I think Calia could have worked if they did her right.
Case in point imagine this scenario. Instead of this ‘Lightforged undead’ thing, have Calia’s body be lost at the end of Before the Storm. In the prologue we find out it is recovered by a few known forsaken such as Lady Coswin, Hecular and so forth. Have them revive her as forsaken using Hecular’s skills with the cost of another forsaken giving up their life to return Calia. They bring her back because ‘her people still need her’.
Then in BfA, Horde players met early on a newly raise forsaken healer who is tending to the refugees who escaped the undercity. Have her turn up during the Horde’s campaign helping out tend to those who are hurt and getting to interact with other Horde characters. Hell, they could have had Saurfang wounded by poison from Dark Rangers sent after her and she who comes to mind as a healer we think might help without blabbing about it. Horde players get to know her and she gets to know the Horde. Hell, have her help Baine but have her involvement hidden. Then when the time comes she can reveal herself as Calia and we know her. She is clearly someone with allies amongst the Horde, who she has come to know and she has lived and breathed life as a forsaken. If they have to ‘lightforge’ her at that stage fine, but at least she as built a re-pore before taking that point.
Instead she comes out of nowhere and has no connections to any horde characters of note. We don’t know her at all. She is a stranger handed to us as a potential replacement for Sylvanas. It would also potentially establish a group of known forsaken behind her as her supporters when she finally steps up to take Sylvanas’s role. As it is we have yet to see one forsaken apart from Lillian even interact with her and Lillian only knew her distantly rather than having any personal connection.
I think the main reason she feels forced, from the horde PoV is that blizzard tried to thrust her into a role of importance when she was heavily alliance affiliated and went from 0-100 on the gas pedal with her trying to sell her as the next big forsaken leader/character. Also it never really feels like she had earned her stripes to be considered forsaken (although in way she has).
Thats kinda whats happened/seems like what is going to happen.
See this is what im talking about when i say forced. Lillian voss up until this expansion dident give two hoots about doing anything but for herself. Now Voss has pulled a 180 on her character and all the sudden wants to help lead the forsaken. Using the mangled character of Voss to sell calia as horde i believe is misguided.
I think this could of worked extremely well, I think alot of problems people have with her is that she was practically alliance, and only had (mostly) alliance character interaction the entire expansion.
A good point as well. Im not against her as a character, but damn has blizzard gone about it the wrong way trying to maker her forsaken, feels jarring to say the least.
So, a few thoughts on Calia, but first, Voss…
Voss is a character they’ve built up slowly from Cata. The Cata Forsaken starter quest zone has you running into her as she comes to terms with being raised as a Forsaken and the fact that the Scarlets now want to kill her. She never actually joins the faction though. We meet her later in MoP, where she’s now dedicated to eradicating necromancy, and has us help her finish off the Scarlets and later Gandling in Scholomance. We find her continuing this in WoD from an Inn / Tavern Daily quest. In Legion, she’s now a Rogue Order Hall follower, but still neutral. Only in BfA is she actually now a member of the Forsaken, and even this isn’t ever really elaborated on much. So, the two takeaways here are that she was built up slowly over the course of expansions, and her being a prominent Forsaken is a relatively new thing.
Calia follows quite a different path. Calia was created mid to late Wrath in a book - far too late to be added to the playable expansion. She wasn’t mentioned again until Legion, when she’s a Priest Order Hall follower. Even here, she doesn’t really have much of an impact on the OH story (though to be fair the Priest and Paladin OH stories were the same anyway). Her story picks up in a book, where she’s killed and then resurrected by Anduin and Faol channeling a Naaru’s power into her. She willingly chooses to become undead and proceeds to stay in either the Priest OH or Stormwind for the remaining time. Her next appearances are Alliance quests, with her final appearance with Voss being to work with the Nelf Forsaken (but not the traditional Forsaken). Notably, the Horde NPC can’t actually interact with her for any of this.
So, that’s the first issue. Voss has her story built up in-game over the course of several years / expansions whereas Calia is basically poofed into existence in BfA, only appears in a few questlines (most being Alliance), and never even really interacts with the faction proper. It takes time and exposure to get people to like a character, and Calia clearly has neither.
Now, as for the second issue, she’s not only not really a Forsaken, but almost the antithesis of one. My character is a Vanilla era Forsaken, so it was originally killed and raised by the Scourge’s necromancy (or at least this is heavily implied). It probably also had to do some things while in service to the Scourge, or at least had some pretty terrible things happen to it. It’s also implied that being raised by the Scourge does cause some negative side-effects. DK’s, for example, must constantly inflict pain on other things or else they themselves suffer. Either way, it spent most of its time lvling up dealing with the affairs of Northern Lordaeron. Later on, it would go to Northrend to confront the Lich King. It’s since done other things on behalf of the Forsaken and Lordaeron (though admittedly there’s not much else the Forsaken canonically do I guess?). Oh, and as for the name Forsaken, it’s mostly because the other races and groups initially spurned them until the Tauren agreed to welcome them into the Horde.
Calia, on the other hand, never went through any of this. She fled to safety and abandoned both the region and her identity. All things considered, she did the one thing many in the Forsaken wished they could have done, but didn’t - she lived. When she was finally killed pre-BfA, Calia was raised by the light, so she suffers no ill-effects from this. Additionally, she specifically chose to become undead when she could have returned as a human. So, in other words, she completely abandoned (forsook) the entire region when it suited her, and only returned and became an undead because she now feels it suits her interest. Hardly a relatable story for the average Forsaken.
More fundamentally however, it feels like another attempt by Bliz to try and revise and rewrite their own lore and history. Why do the Forsaken suddenly need a light based undead to come in and “fix” the faction? Why can’t someone from within the ranks - or at least heavily tied to the questing experience (either former SC or AD members) be the one to do it? Also, why does it specifically have to be a new Alliance character tied directly to Anduin? We already have him as bff’s with Baine, and now he somehow features into the upcoming book with Talanji and Zappyboi. Why do we need Anduin affiliated characters all over the Horde faction? As with a lot of things with the Horde, it feels like them just trashing the original characters and narratives for their “new and improved” Horde. (Though this can also be said for the Alliance too. Never forget that, back in Vanilla, Magni was a pretty terrible father to his daughter.)
The faction’s been around for years, and we’ve had plenty of characters they could have built up (Belmnot, Velonara, Heccular, Benthor Iceshard, Gunther Arcanus, etc). Instead, we’re getting stuck with a book character with no real ties to the faction set up as the faction lead. It’s honestly quite frustrating.
(It’s also frustrating that this all effectively ruins SL for the Forsaken. Here we are with the 2nd Death themed expansion, and yet again the death themed faction is sidelined. forsaken haven’t had a good story in years, and it sucks that this opportunity is likely going to be blown rebuilding the faction around Calia.)
EDIT: A final bit that I should have added earlier. She’s replacing a character that’s been leading the faction for 15 years. It’s very jarring to go from Sylvanas to a character that has only existed in a very minor role for a single expansion, especially when Sylvanas’s role in this expansion was poorly received.
In Legion she was Horde only. Probably just a game mechanic though, Blizz probably wanted both her and Tess so they just split them.
From what I can tell, Lilian Voss is returning in the new follower system as a Horde follower in Shadowlands. Her counterpart for Alliance is Shandris.
She was Horde-Only as an actual follower but I believe the quests themselves were neutral. Memory’s a bit fuzzy on this - I remember doing something with Tess at one point at least.
You explained that much better than I could.
Basically blizzard broke the golden rule of story telling, show DONT tell. They pretty much just told us all these things about calia, never showed.
They are involved in other questlines, Hordies do interact with Tess at some points, and Alliance interact with Lilian for the mount.
But the questline where they are recuited are different depending on faction, with Lilian being there for Horde rogues and Tess there for Alliance rogues. You wouldn’t have seen Tess in that particular questline as a Horde, but did do quests for her in other questlines.
I’m sorry for turning this thread into a Calia one.
But I hope Horde get some Horde leaders in their campaign leaders in their story as opposed to just Bolvar. From what was datamined so far and watching some videos I haven’t seen much of him yet.
Oh the Calia note, during the quest with voss they did mention the undead Night elves who were now homeless. That seems to be a common theme with the Forsaken.
But what is the “goal” of the Forsaken? Their original goal was to be with the humans. That’s what they set out to do right after they freed themselves. Calia may be a way to achieve that goal. I mean Sylvanas wrote letters to the human kingdoms asking for their help and the humans declined.
Well, now it seems the humans are open to that idea if the Forsaken still want it. Sylvanas was the one who didn’t want it in BTS. Now she’s out of the picture and we’ll see if the Forsaken want it again. I hope Shadowlands explores more of that as we dead with the themes of death and undeath.
There are no faction storylines, from what I can tell.
Alliance get to interact with Vol’jin in Ardenweald, and Horde interact with Tyrande in the Maw.
The original goal was vengeance against the Lich King, and they betrayed humans to achieve this, as well as experimented on humans. Reconidling with humanity was not something they wanted.
In cataclysm the Forsaken were interested in establishing themselves as a proper kingdom, expanding and securing new towns and lands, and rebuilding what they had into proper buildings. Civilisation building was their goal then.
Reconcidling with humanity was not something Forsaken were trying to achieve until Before the Storm, where the idea was beginning to gain support among Forsaken.
I think those are PH names. If you look at the abilities, they don’t fit either character.
Frankly having humans of Stormwind all hunky dory with the undead now and the Forsaken still wanting to go back effectively undermines the relevance of them as a faction as well as their place in the Horde. Why would the Forsaken as a group even exist if they could all just go home like you say they want to and hang out with the living?
I think this as a story path would effectively kill the Forsaken as a faction, particularly in the Horde. It wouldn’t work at all.
I have always wanted the Forsaken’s story to be to transcend their fate. To move beyond being the victims of their destiny and forge a future for themselves in spite of that even if it is a more shadowed one. For most newly raised Forsaken these days, undeath is a second chance to do the things they weren’t able to do in life. The same can apply to these. It is defying their death and rising beyond it to build a future in spite of it, whether that desire is driven by fear, greed, duty or just unwillingness to give in.
Could be. They were also counterparts in BfA.
My only real question then would be why those two showed up, but the rest were Shadowlands inhabitants. Leftovers, perhaps.
Well right now the strongest opponent of that left. I mean, we’re at another point in time where the Forsaken are at a low period of trust within the horde.
But I do see your point. It’s very much like how the dwarves turn out. Wrynn came in there and decided that the dwarves should have a council and that was that. Despite the fact that dwarves even acknowledged that Moria Bronzebeard had the best claim to the throne, Wrynn overruled it because of he got his feelings hurt.
So I can understand your disdain with having something shoved at you.
That’s why I hope they do a better job introducing her and making her understand the forsaken’s plight. She seems eager to learn and understand.
Which I hope they can do by continuing her story into Shadowlands, maybe make her walk around with the Horde player. Because the Forsaken story isn’t done and is shaping up to be the most interesting of the Horde stories imo.
The problem is they have already introduced her and frankly she comes off too much already as ‘understanding’ which is hard to find credible since it is hard to see her experience and short time as undead putting her in a position to provide guidance to someone who has been proper undead for 10 years.
I might be proven wrong but they have mishandled her a lot up to this point and they have said that Shadowlands wouldn’t have faction specific content. Its all covenants now.
Plus I don’t want them to just replace the ‘Cult of Sylvanas’ identity with a ‘Cult of Calia’. That doesn’t do anything for the forsaken or its identity, particularly with how poorly she gels with the established forsaken structure they wrote.
Calia Is clearly one of Golden’s pet creations, she has been created in such a way that she can write an alliance character for the Horde. Golden is still the primary novel writer for the universe and she simply doesn’t like writing any of the existing Horde characters so she made her own.