BM Is Woefully Underpowered

Classes Hunter
104

As MM, I constantly have to send the pet to even attack or respond, or the YOUR PET IS DEAD, then you try to rez the pet but it says, YOUR PET IS NOT DEAD…

^ This is literal clown shoes because this has been a problem since Beta WOW. The fact that you, me or the other hunters haven’t bound a script to correct the problem IS OUR PROBLEM. You’re going to have to show me where these Devs said this, I’m not discounting it, but it’s like, I want to see the unicorn of a topic be real. If they said this, why isn’t it fixed. I hate BM, it underperforms and pets a janky, doesn’t mean that there isn’t a solution to it. /shrug

You’d be right, I stated earlier that I haven’t raided.

There are binds and scripts to help you solve maybe some of that issue. I’m not saying it’s right, but if we are going back to original argument, BM doesn’t have a mobility issue doing damage.

I haven’t watched the video of the fight; but, what you’re saying is you need buffed for this one fight because BM doesn’t do well? I mean, in the history of logs it’s been that way. Of the very few Warlock raid tiers, they’ve been the only ones I see dominate. I don’t expect MM ranked in every fight and I think Blizzard feels the same way. Shadow Priests are like that in previous tiers, they shine in like 1 or two encounters and garbage the rest.

…but I’d have to concede that I haven’t bothered to even look at logs and what they do. I’m just trying to make sense of what you guys are talking about and they seem isolated to this “one time”. My point was, is that you have to wait to a majority have their 2 and 4pc, and everyone’s ilvls to get a good impression of what needs changed.

That being said, I think the double tap issue will affect MM for a while, as a result, I’m not sure the changes they’re making will be good. I also think that in PVE, it will be a dramatic impact because of the gap that already exists from melee to range.

Keep in mind, I’m not disagreeing that Hunters as a whole don’t need looked at. I’m just not sure BM needs buffed for specifically one thing. /shrug AND there is no point being upset at me, because again, I’m not the one Blizzard is coming to. I think they have hunters in a bad place for a while for lack of attention.

105

Binds and scripts are just going to swap the pet from Assist to Passive and back, which is something we can do with the simple press of a button. The problem is, doing so mid-fight causes more issues than simply leaving the pet on Assist.

That is just objectively wrong though. BM can do it’s full rotation while moving, but that is entirely different than “BM doesn’t have a mobility issue doing damage”. Changing targets cause a huge lag in damage, as pets aren’t very fast and charging to the target has a very short range.

Nope. You’re conflating the example given as the only example. There are a lot of fights where BM issues come into play. In the current raid tier, that would be…

  • lack of AoE on Council,
  • “No path to target” errors for pets on Sennarth,
  • randomized packs of adds on Broodkeeper,
  • pets getting stuck on initial platform during second phase of Raszageth.
  • ^^ That’s half the fights in the raid with serious issues.

Double Tap is an issue for PvP, where MM Hunters want to be able to kill people in a couple globals. My personal feelings is that they should keep DT until Blizzard gives Hunters more self-sustain.

In PvE, however, Tactical Reload will be more DPS than Double Tap. 10% cooldown reduction on Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire is objectively more benefit to throughput than Double Tap on a 1 min cooldown.

I haven’t seen anyone complaining about one thing. Overwhelmingly, we want the talent trees addressed and adjusted. The fewest number of talents in the game and the highest number of 2/3 point talents. They didn’t bother to adjust them in a way that gives us synergistic builds.

  • Going the optimal Dire Beasts route results in ZERO AoE abilities.
  • The 3 min burst route is undertuned and bugged.
  • They tied Kill Command into our AoE rotation, then made the AoE window only 6 seconds - preventing us from using a notable number of Kill Commands within that window.

It’s become quite clear to many of us that whoever designed the BM tree didn’t actually understand how they all worked together. Hell, our 4pc bonus was originally a Focus saver and it took outrage from the community to make them understand that gives us no benefit. It was also the only 4pc that didn’t contribute directly to DPS.

6 Likes
106

BM is honestly slept on. There’s some improvements that need to be made but it’s definitely viable in pvp and mythic+. Glad you posted the vids to prove for those that need it…

107

No, they will change target with whatever skill you bind to.

Comparing it to the other range classes and mechanics, yes it does.

That is the only example you provided.

IMO, PVE M+ too and I don’t believe it will be enough for Tact Reload to be helpful because of the continues stop casts.

Addressing the example you cited… I mean, I have no argument on what you think needs to be traded. I haven’t seen many BM hunters, I think they’re in line with MM from what I saw. Although, he could have had a 2 piece. All I know is, they’re are probably not enough people playing BM in M+. That is more the communities fault though.

Again, I don’t think there is anyone in the room advocating for Hunters for quite some time.

108

So you’re talking about target macros, not assist macros? That’s completely beside the point and doesn’t solve the problem of pets moving across a room slowly (sometimes at RP walk speed). I was referencing the current bugs with putting pets on passive to control pet movement.

I didn’t provide it. Someone else did.

Maybe, but that doesn’t change the fact that Tactical Reload is objectively more DPS.

Again, it wasn’t my example. Just defending the example they gave as one of the many situations where these issues arise.

3 Likes
109

^ Subjectively. We don’t know until we see it in practice. I believe DT will ruin rapid fire and 10% less cast time? 230 milliseconds difference isn’t going to increase damage. We’re already having to move and stop cast silence and traq. I’m not sure how 10% (230 milliseconds or 2.07 sec)will help PVP. Maybe over a 10min fight that will matter, but, lol. Do you think Rapid Fire going from 20 sec channel to 18 sec?

As far as I’ve seen, BM is doing well in M+. I don’t think it’s big. I’m over here wondering what time I need to sacrifice just to go get a 4pc. I’m trying to justify say a M+ 12-16 is less harder then a Normal/Heroic raid right now. It’s the second week of raid? People walking around with a 4pc? Feels bad if you just want to do keys.

1 Like
110

I’m just going to say this. Our ST is pretty good and I actually enjoy the playstyle of it. I don’t like our AoE, it’s simply not great.

On my fury warrior I literally only have to spend a grand total of 2 talents point, yes TWO points to get damn near the maximum benefit for my AoE. On my BM Hunter I have to spend 6-8 (8 for max potential) points to have full AoE at a huge loss to ST.

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111

To be clear, this is your opinion. To my knowledge no Warcraft Developer has ever said this, or even implied it. In fact, there have been raids in which BM was at, or close to the top of the heap for the entire tier. To me, that seems to imply that Blizzard either does not agree with you, or are not able to balance to their own goals, whatever they may be.

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112

Why the heck is barbed shot in the talent tree anyway if later there are talents to improve it? They could replace that and multi shot with something better to improve the spec.

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113

Truthfully most classes need tree overhauls due to nodes being required for the spec to function properly.

Not to mention giving up ST for AOE and vice versa is a relic of game design. Everyone should have both. Switching specs constantly based on boss fight is meh design. It had more impact when you couldn’t respec wherever, whenever. Now it’s just a relic that makes no sense other than to make people open up a window and click a dropdown and a button. It brings absolutely no value to any class and solely exists as an annoyance in almost 2023.

5 Likes
114

What’s getting me the most right now is how much DPS we sacrifice to get AoE.

And tuning our class around that darn bow is just nonsense. Who would of thought this was a good idea? And even if you get the bow, rogues and other classes will still out perform you.

8 Likes
115

I haven’t seen a Rogue not in a number 1 spot in Raids or Mythics in any fight. It’s absurd how far they pull ahead of the number 2 spot in the same level gear.

116

I’ve been around since BETA vanilla. If I knew almost 20 years ago I’d have to categorize all information just to prove it to a random player in game, I would have. The ebb and flow of BM has been either exclusively PVP or an alternative to MM in raids for mobility once they made SV melee. Don’t take my word for it, look at logs. I’ve had to flip flop a number of times since a lot of raid mechanics had hunters doing ridiculous raid mechanics.

How long have you been playing? Not nearly a fact nor close to the case. Largely warlocks or sometimes Shadow priests own logs. The only time you would see hunters come close would be a guild who would let hunters cheese on dps, ie kill all adds. The last time Hunters were very competitive was circa WOTLK and back. That’s not my opinion, that was Ghostcrawler, if you want to spend your time finding it, by all means. When he left, so did a lot of attention and care for hunters left. If you can find a die hard Warrior fan, they should probably tell you that warrior dps improved after he left as well. Don’t know what to tell you. There has always been a cost for high mobility sepc As it related to PVP, BM was for PVP and MM/SV were for raiding during many expansions. That only changed around Warlords where so many complaints about beast cleave ripping through the PVP community. I don’t ask you to take my word, but you’re not familiar or not looking the info. Either way, I don’t care. /shrug

4 Likes
117

underpowered as usual

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118

Im destroying the meters as BM in most M+ content and i top in most normal and heroic raids up to 4/8

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119

Since December 2004.

As are you. A random player.

I question your memory. Did you just sit out for BFA? I seem to remember BM Hunters absolutely destroying Ny’alotha…

120

Same, but that’s why anecdotes aren’t good evidence. Have to look at the numbers and see where a spec lands in the grand scope.

That being said, BM’s single target is adequate. Not the best, but not the worst. Our AoE is atrocious, however, and the pathing in the talent trees is the culprit.

4 Likes
121

I was 11/12 Mythic raider… Did you read what I said? Did you know that BM could cheese that fight and avoid doing mechanics on that boss? Even the Nzoth fight you could cheese meters and do incredible damage.

You’re questioning my memory about BFA, head over to read the logs (Warcraft Logs). “BM” wasn’t dominating. There were a couple of fights if you focused on the adds you could boost your damage. Go read it, btw what was your progression through it?

Now… if you want to get serious, go read the MYTHIC logs for DF. BM hunters ranked in top 10 in 2 bosses… I didn’t bother to look at the full list, so they may be a point of exception. However, this game is design from Mythic Raiding back. I DO NOT think everyone is at the place with BiS to KNOW if BM or any class for that matter is needing such a large boost that you’re claiming. I have seen BM hunters close to me in the 15’s I run and just shooting from the hip and looking at the logs, it doesn’t appear to be as bad as people profess.

Again, I’ve played BM, MM, SV (ranged) quite a bit since Vanilla. I have a hard time really figuring out where all the classes are at because of how much a 2pc/4pc throws DPS way out of wack. I’m trying to figure out how Blizzard wants to avoid a “borrowed power” when these set pieces are absolutely OP. So, AGAIN, in DF and isolated to DF, my answer will remain that I don’t know if BM needs to be buffed until a LOT more people have a 4pc and logging.

122

Absolutely agree Cognition. Blizzards theory ‘seems’ to be (just my take based on looking at logs for the last few XPAC’s), that if your ‘niche’ is single target, you get to be maybe 4-6% higher than spec with the AoE ‘niche’. If your ‘niche’ is AoE, it seems to be perfectly fine if you are doing 40% or more damage on AoE fights. I would direct attention to Primal Council numbers for AoE vs the Terros numbers for ST. It’s far from the first time logs have looked like this when comparing ST specs to AoE specs.

In a environment where almost every PvE aspect of the game has very high value on AoE, this is a broken paradigm.

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123

If you are arguing class balance based on Mythic logs, I can’t really speak to that. Neither can better than 99% of the playerbase. From what I can see, top tier Mythic raids bring specs for reasons that have little to do with damage. Liquid brought BM’s to several fight this tier for example. Why? I have no idea, have to ask Max.

As for where most players actually live, BM was #3 in Heroic and #2 in Normal in the Ny’alotha raid. It’s in the logs, not my opinion. Fact.

Edit BM was #5 overall in Mythic Ny’alotha. And IMHO, killing adds is not ‘cheesing the meters’. Last time I checked, adds are the #1 priority in pretty much every fight that has them.

edit2 I kind of agree with this. I have 4 set, and it gave me a bump, especially after training myself to hold a one stack of KC if BS was about to be up to get the buff, but it wasn’t game changing. I’m very curious to see what the Bow does, but I’m not lucky enough to have one.