Tired of begging. Let’s go! Can’t compete as is.
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… it doesnt. Read up on the rotation or gear up. Youre 611 when average player active within content is much higher.
In terms of M+ it does… go to warcraft logs and search for any key… the top damage class are doing aroung 400 to 600 k more overall dps than sub… and in the rogue comparison are the worst spec by far…
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Except its not. Warcraftlogs means almost nothing when it comes to performance if you dont know what youre looking at nor what contributed to that data.
Sub is the least played rogue spec, that does not mean its severely underperforming.
In addition to that, Sub is at its strongest during cooldowns smeaning to get the most damage out of it, pulls would have to be done around its cooldowns. If that happens, itd look like the other specs are severely underperforming relative to Sub. If that doesnt happen (like now), Sub just runs outta CDs to keep up with other specs while also having to deal with the melee mechanics and the dps tax they bring. An aura buff or nerf wouldnt fix these issues, theyd just turn them into the opposite one.
The real solution lies in ability / talent tweaking.
All Rogue specs need a buff when Feral can outperform any of them with 1/10th of the effort in PvP.
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This is a very confusing post.
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Literally 1 typo
Nahh the spec needs a buff ASAP, they struggle to do 14 keys… when you have people like Kush, world top sub player from Echo changing to assa in the middle of the season, that has to tell you something… and warcraft logs is a very good example of damage in keys…
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Agree to an extent, I played Sub all SL/DF for keys. The major shift downward happened in DF post re work. Up to then Sub had one of the best DPS profiles for aoe funnel into single target or vice versa. Unfortunately the re design put so much into Flagellation that the spec is worthless w/o.
Honestly Flag is one of those abilities that shouldn’t have been introduced, much like Breath of Sindragosa for DK. Once you put an ability like that in you automatically have to tune the entirety of the spec around it, if the devs want it to be ‘impactful.’ The direct effect of this is the entire spec and all variants of it become worthless w/o this one ability.
I’d like to see sub go back to what it was in DF 1-2. SL wasn’t super great but those first two seasons of DF were the best I’ve ever experienced in terms of both play and performance.
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Sub sucked DF 1-2 same as Sin now. Yeah they absolutely pumped in terms of damage, but they feel bad to play. In Subs case it just spammed BP and Shuriken Tornado. In Sins case its very much the same after you spread dots (with the removal of Shadow Dance preventing you for spreading again in the middle of a pull). On top of that Sin has horrible energy regen in single target. It also cant change the way it does damage to suit different situations either.
Sub is currently the best designed its ever been (for as long as ive been playing at least). Abilities that need to be used differently depending on the situation, good talent variation before the capstones, and good defensive options. Sin is good, but lacking in terms of defensive options and the bad energy regen this patch had me dropping it entirely. It does have talent variety in the capstone section though.
The DF rework was the best thing to happen to Rogues since i started in Legion despite how peoples opinions about the abilities may have changed with time. Blizz didnt do enough, but the work that was put in was a great start.
I dont understand your problem with Flag. Redegisn only changed its buff from haste to mastery. Its also in the capstone section and is a better ability than half of what exists down there so naturally youll want to take it.
Neither is true though, which is why Subs number of players is in the toilet and Assassination is the go to for the majority of people playing the spec in pve.
Not really, in either the dungeon spec or single target raid spec. If you’re playing zero haste then yes, but that’s on you not the spec.
It can but it also doesn’t need to which is the elegant part of the current design of Assassination and the former design of Sub. I can get a small amount of cleave out of the single target raid build or a monster amount out of a hybird M+ build. For reference there are two single target builds and two M+ builds for assassination.
Ah, you have nothing better to parse against than the absolute worst iteration of rogue ever. I’m not taking a shot at you no one liked Legion rogue. Anything would be better than that. I’ve been on one since OG Wrath so I’ve seen a bit more. SL/DF were the pinnacle of Sub performance in pve, outside Fangs of the Father in Cata and even then FotF would lose to SL/DF design. Meanwhile the opposite is true for Outlaw vs Combat, old combat with FotF would crush outlaw now.
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Subs numbers are in the toilet because Rogue is a triple dps spec and people tend to play whichever spec is doing the most damage. Right now that is Sin. Doesnt mean Sub plays poorly.
Im sorry. I guess all those Sin rogues at the bottom of meters during M+ bosses should just change their gear stats each boss.
Its actually crazy how you guys feel the need to explain stuff despite not even posting a rogue, to someone who mains rogue.
Sin has a cleave talent that is mandatory for anything involving more than 1 target. It puts out its dot and then tries to funnel 1 target to cleave. There is no choice there. Youre either cleaving or your not, and its only full aoe option comes as a dot. Sub changes its rotation mid fight depending on whats needed. Doesnt even need talent changes unlike what you described.
Aka the black powder spamming era. The 2 button rotation era. The era where it was easiest to play Sub rogue. Youre a joke.
Legion PVE Sub had its moments after the mid expansion rework but Sub PVE WoD was better. I do agree that Sub in systemlands and DF was more popular than it is now in TWW.
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His Rogue is 2k so I think he’s got a good idea of what he’s talking about.
The issue is you’re trying to approach this from an R1 perspective or maybe where you’d like to be later in your career, especially since it looks like you’re not even doing that much ranked - and even then what little you do looks to be on Assassination?
When I said your post was odd it’s because you simultaneously say Sub is bad, but then it isn’t. Your next response is that it was bad in DF and then go on to say it was the best after the rework… in DF, when it had two buttons. Maybe I’m misreading it.
Flag also isn’t another “tool” in your belt, it’s just yet another CD you’re required to remember or your DPS is going to crap. There’s no reason it can’t be turned into a modifier to any of the other billion skills we have.
Sub is by far my favorite spec, even though I’m terrible at it, and I’ll continue to play it but I’m under no illusion it’s in a good spot right now. It shouldn’t have taken me a month to realize I’m there to make sure my teammate can close the game out because I have limited defenses and sub-par damage.
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Neither of us were talking about PvP.
You are correct about this part though because Trickster and Deathstalker are what truly elevated Sub. Both came with TWW, but i wouldnt be saying its designed well if not for the DF rework.
That’s fair and my apologies for misunderstanding about the PvE focus.
You’re not wrong that Sub has a lot of tools for sure and it becomes very complicated as a result. I’d be totally okay with that old DF 2-button rotation if it meant my AoE damage would be close to the other classes performing out there.
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It comes down to knowing the class though, Assassination relies more on haste than the other two, by a lot. I usually finish M+ bosses over 1m and at the top by a wide margin unless I’m playing with people who are over 625, sooo it’s a stat/play style issue. Imagine different specs needing different stats. Your dam will be pure trash if you’re heavy on vers and low on haste.
I main rogue, here.
h ttps://raider.io/characters/us/moonrunner/Arbit%C3%A9r
I’ve mained Rogue with DK since Wrath lad. Settle. Multi season KSM/KSL, AOTC, Duelist, on all three specs of rogue.
The irony of someone yelling how good they are on rogue and not understanding the stat breakdown needed to max out the three specs is funny.
Wasn’t this in SL and it was still leagues better than what sub is now. Yeah, you don’t know what you’re on about and you just want to insult. Stay bad. Bloody people that pay for carries jesus.
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… which is what Sin needs to run in M+ due to M+ being aoe heavy. So as i said, i guess youre just expecting Sin players to magically change their stats before every boss to get the good boss damage Sub currently provides without changing stats?
You started talking about stat weights after i said Sin had horrible energy regen in ST (which remains true whether youre geared for ST or not by the way) but for some reason wanted to ignore that Sin runs the least haste in M+.
Point is, Sub isnt underperforming just because its underplayed. It brings its own benefits with the downside of taling more effort to learn and play efficiently. Sin does the same thing every pack without fail. Sub changes it up based on whats being dealth with.
Dude cant even complete a 10 and yet im the one paying for carries? Seems like projection.
Vers is just barely above haste even in AOE and practically it isn’t for the exact reason that you run into single target bosses all the time, so unless you have a lot of crit you’re going to be way more energy starved. Mast</= Crit in AOE till a certain point with crit.
I’d also like to point out Kingsbane ramp and the fact that any haste/IAS is going to indirectly buff bane as well, in the best way b/c all the damage is backloaded into the dot which you ramp.
BTW common complaint with Assass st is the use of tea b/c people just spam mut ST instead of weaving FOK in for CtW procs or when you have 5cp and want a 7cp envenom so as not to under clip for pandemic/straight damage. Helps a lot with energy management. The benefit of me running that much haste is that my teas don’t get used unless I want them to get used while still doing more than 1m on most bosses unless there’s a lot of movement.
AOE Prio (generally) Mast</= crit,verse<–>Haste
ST Crit=Mast(35-42%crit), Haste, Vers
Don’t take my word for it though, here’s someone who’s better than either of us talking about how to play/gear Assassination
h ttps://youtu.be/J6sG-HOtCIA?si=6VDi12pRkhAi0z3Z
So you presume that b/c I was spam farming 4s to level my gear before pushing I can’t run 10s? LMAO sorry bro but no, I presume you’re a carry b/c you don’t know basic things about assassination such as stat prio or why the rogues who run M+ don’t run as much haste as I do, however they have better gear and far more crit. Which is more valuable overall anyway b/c Seal Fate. Less globals more envenoms so you can skimp on haste. Also b/c you somehow think Vers is good for sin, while it isn’t terrible it’s our least valuable till we get late game and have enough of the other stats to make it worth to pick up.
The other reason I say haste is going to be more valuable than vers is b/c once you’re into 10+ the mobs last a lot longer so you get way more caustic, more autos help with that and it also affects the rate at which your bleeds tick.
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Ive been playing Rogue at a fairly high level for years. I dont need your explanations nor youtube videos and have given ample justification for my arguments.
You cant even post on your rogue.