Blizzard "would like to do" 2H Frost

[Trumpknight-darrowmere (Trumpknight)]

You can use a non-dagger in the off-hand in Subtlety. That never changed.

[Monkiy-faerlina]

That’s one of your most dishonest uses of the word “literal” to date. Well done on missing the point of the discussion that delved into viable vs. optimal.

I haven’t been in this discussion for a few days but you have heavily implied this on a few occasions, and I’m nearly certain you said it verbatim but for arguments sake I’ll leave it at a probably.

I have never said or implied anything of the kind. Do not misrepresent other’s arguments.

or autistic based on the history of said meme.

The history of the meme is that it’s the sound a frog makes when it’s angry.
See here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM6EHcPFKCQ

I’m aware of the source. I’m also aware of how people use it at large. This doesn’t take away from the immaturity of your post.

[Zynthiax-emerald-dream (Zynthiax)]

I dont understand why some people are so against 2h? If blizzard gives you, the player an option to play 2h or DW, why are some of you against this? If you still can play DW, how does 2h frost spec affect you?

[Thorvus-moon-guard]

Don’t accuse me of misrepresenting your argument if you did say exactly that. Your whole argument in the post below is for why 2H shouldn’t be brought back. I hadn’t misrepresented you in the slightest, nor had the other poster.

Depends on where you draw the line on the idea of viable. Some people would argue that every spec and every talent setup is viable if you’re good enough. You can get the best players to play the worst specs perfectly, and they could hypothetically do fine. There’s even a somewhat famous example of a top raiding guild that decked themselves out in pre-Naxx gear and then went and cleared Ulduar (can’t remember if they did hardmodes or not).

But most players don’t play that well, and at what point do you accept that someone is handicapping themselves, and by extension the rest of the group? The fact that they are not great players, who are more prone to dying to fire, or not getting split DoT damage, lining up CDs properly, or otherwise not playing optimally actually makes playing the superior spec/build more important because if your skill is limited you may as well hit buttons that put out better numbers (outside of niche cases where the build is notably more difficult to play, relatively rare in WoW).

Once you step into anything remotely competitive, or group dependent, where output does matter in meeting timers, enrages, etc., few people want to hear the justification for why someone is playing a spec that is at best 10% behind another option in the class. That’s a huge difference, and once you’re worried about knocking down content, performing at 90% isn’t viable in those cases unless you’re banking on farming and overgearing everything.

I’m not here to debate whether what you’re saying is true or not, but you can’t make claims and then immediately deny that you ever said them. The search function exists for a reason.

Edit: I included the entire post because based on your posting history in this thread, i just assumed it would be an issue for you. You clearly imply and state in the last paragraph that because players don’t want to hear excuses for not playing the meta, that 2H shouldn’t come back. Do you think 99% of the player base cares what some rando mythic raid leader thinks? Or maybe they just want to play how they want, without what that raid lead wants in his/her raid, affecting how they play.

[Monkiy-faerlina]

Depends on where you draw the line on the idea of viable.

There’s this really key line right at the start that you missed. That was the topic, right there. I did not argue that everything non-viable or non-optimal be removed, the entire post was talking about at what point do you switch from considering something from non-optimal to non-viable, because I disagreed with someone’s assertion that 2H was always viable. And somehow you have abstracted something that isn’t there out of that.

You are in no uncertain terms misrepresenting my argument with something that I never said.

The search function exists for a reason.

Use that search function to find where I said to remove everything non-viable and non-optimal. Especially since I’ve apparently nearly said it verbatim. I dare you.

[Mauden-korgath (Mauden)]

I’m aware of the source. I’m also aware of how people use it at large.

Uh-huh. I don’t believe that, but arguing about memelord status is going too far off-topic even for me.

This doesn’t take away from the immaturity of your post.

Again, I am truly sorry that I included a minor meme. The 1% of my post that was said meme truly ruined the rest.
How will I ever forgive myself for doing such a terrible thing?

because I disagreed with someone’s assertion that 2H was always viable.

May I ask how you disagree with that? 2h Frost has always been viable.

There seems to be a severe misunderstanding of “viable” and “optimal” from the anti-2h people. It’s pretty aggravating.

[Thorvus-moon-guard]

Every post by you in this thread has been about why 2H frost should not come back. So when you say:

Once you step into anything remotely competitive, or group dependent, where output does matter in meeting timers, enrages, etc., few people want to hear the justification for why someone is playing a spec that is at best 10% behind another option in the class. That’s a huge difference, and once you’re worried about knocking down content, performing at 90% isn’t viable in those cases unless you’re banking on farming and overgearing everything.

It absolutely implies that this is a justification for what you’ve said countless times thus far. That DW has always been better and so it should be the only option. And, again, there are people killing mythic Azshara using specs that are outperformed by their same-class counterparts by the same numbers you used here.

You also said:

But most players don’t play that well, and at what point do you accept that someone is handicapping themselves, and by extension the rest of the group?

This line is to be determined by THOSE players, and not you. The way they play is to be determined by THEM, and not you. Don’t want to invite a DK into your run because they’re 2H? Fine, that’s entirely your right. Don’t want to play one because its worse? Cool, that’s up to you. You are consistently impressing upon a bunch of total strangers what they should and shouldn’t want based on how you play the game, then trying to say you aren’t.

[Monkiy-faerlina]

Every post by you in this thread has been about why 2H frost should not come back. So when you say:

And this shows that you do not understand my stance on the topic at all. I argue against the sub-spec specifically. If people want a mog? I’m behind that. They want it as a separate spec? I actually think that’s the best solution. But I am completely against the idea of going back to the sub-spec design because that is a lesson in poor design already learned.

It absolutely implies that this is a justification for what you’ve said countless times thus far. That DW has always been better and so it should be the only option.

You’re putting words in my mouth again, after I just clarified that that is not what that implies at all. THAT IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT TOPIC ON OPTIMAL VS. VIABILITY. You’re just trolling at this point if you’re going to keep saying that what I say actually means something else.

This line is to be determined by THOSE players, and not you. The way they play is to be determined by THEM, and not you. Don’t want to invite a DK into your run because they’re 2H? Fine, that’s entirely your right. Don’t want to play one because its worse? Cool, that’s up to you. You are consistently impressing upon a bunch of total strangers what they should and shouldn’t want based on how you play the game, then trying to say you aren’t.

Again, you have entirely missed the context of that post, and running with a fantasy of what you think I mean instead of reading the literal words in front of you.

[Kyrios-bleeding-hollow (Kyrios)]

May I ask how you disagree with that? 2h Frost has always been viable.

There seems to be a severe misunderstanding of “viable” and “optimal” from the anti-2h people. It’s pretty aggravating.

Hes just terrified that allowing 2H Frost will break DW Frost (Ignoring the fact that it’s already broken). Hes not misunderstanding anything, hes just favors DW and doesn’t want 2H people rocking the boat.

[Monkiy-faerlina]

May I ask how you disagree with that? 2h Frost has always been viable.

I disagree because there have been multiple instances where 2H Frost was in such a poor state that it was a significant detriment to bringing almost any other spec. Generally speaking, viable is to mean that a spec performs at an acceptable level. Performance isn’t a singular thing, though, and takes consideration of multiple aspects of the spec and content you’re looking to do. This is why I said it’s about “where you draw that line,” because it’s not always a definitive “can’t do X” method of determination. Usually DPS specs trending towards the bottom of the charts between sims and logs are not considered viable due to pure throughput, but other reasons could be a lack of burst (ex. Warlocks were practically required for H Blackfuse, other specs largely weren’t viable for the role), a lack of versatility in a fight (not the stat), or player skill on the individual level if the spec requires play that someone cannot deliver (ex. Feral was the theoretical highest DPS in a certain tier, but the playstyle was so difficult to manage that the spec wasn’t considered viable, even by top players and guilds).

2H Frost suffered from the base throughput issues as a DPS almost consistently, but it also didn’t perform well due to being so purely physical that lack of uptime inherently hurt it more than most melee, and that it lacked the ability to take advantage of cleave because Frost Fever and Howling Blast did little for a spec that avoided Mastery a lot of the time. Tiers like Hellfire Citadel are examples of the spec largely being considered non-viable because it brought nothing at all to a group. You could carry them, but even played perfectly they didn’t pull their weight compared to even a mid-pack spec.

Hes just terrified that allowing 2H Frost will break DW Frost (Ignoring the fact that it’s already broken). Hes not misunderstanding anything, hes just favors DW and doesn’t want 2H people rocking the boat.

You should really look up what a strawman argument is. It’s this.

[Kyrios-bleeding-hollow (Kyrios)]

Wow, man. You are significantly overstating the pitfalls of 2H Frost. You also seem to not understand, or are purposely ignoring, the possibility of Bliz making changes to a future Frost spec to better balance the different weapons choices.

[Rhamnousia-stormrage]

Im curious, since most of these last posts are u 3 or so going back and forth, I want to get something down.

Do u believe frost was never viable? Not Optimal, viable.

If they could balance 2h and dw would u be against them reintroducing 2h? Dont say “but they cant” these are just yes and no.

Are u against a 2h transmog for DW and dw mog for 2h?

Is your reason for NOT wanting 2h for fear balance will be borked and they will screw with balancing for dw by introducing 2h?

This isnt a “gotcha” post. Im just trying to get your stance because conversation has kinda devolved.

[Kyrios-bleeding-hollow (Kyrios)]

Do u believe frost was never viable? Not Optimal, viable.

DW Frost has traditionally been a strong to very strong DPS spec in PVE, and pretty below average in PVP. Lately, ironically (considering how protective of it Monkiy is), it has been steadily declining in its overall effectiveness in PVE and getting even worse in PVP.

2H Frost was average to slightly above average in PVE. 2H Frost was strong to very strong in PVP (prior to its nerf just before its complete removal in Legion).

If they could balance 2h and dw would u be against them reintroducing 2h? Dont say “but they cant” these are just yes and no.

I want DW and 2H Frost to be options for players. I honestly think all DK specs should have the option of either weapon set. I think Unholy and Blood would be amazing as a DW DK, both thematically and from a game play perspective.

Are u against a 2h transmog for DW and dw mog for 2h?

Not against it, but its not ideal. Would rather be allowed to just used a 2H weapon. But whatever, beggars cant be choosers.

Is your reason for NOT wanting 2h for fear balance will be borked and they will screw with balancing for dw by introducing 2h?

N/A to me.

[Rhamnousia-stormrage]

Was more for monkiy, but good to get others views xD

[Diecruxx-bleeding-hollow (Diecruxx)]

Are Kelliste and Monkiy the same person?

[Dundiddy-barthilas]

Without a doubt.

---

People, don’t settle for this 2 handed aesthetic nonsense, some people would be happy with having one handers appear as a two hander, but from what i’ve seen a lot more people want 2 handed frost the exact way it was portrayed in wrath, in cata, in mop and in wod, 2 HANDED.

Only one argument is made as to why it shouldn’t return and it’s always “It didn’t perform as well as dual wield” which may be true, but why should it stay that way? Blizzard need to implement a passive ability that allows for dual wield frost and 2 handed frost, surely in 2019 this isn’t hard for them to do.

If you’re like me and everyone else in this thread who’s passionate about 2 Handed Frost returning then make it known.

[Mauden-korgath (Mauden)]

It’s either that or they both just really like big walls of fluff.

[Baator-quelthalas-44165 (Baator)]

How true, how much poetry. The DK of the beginnings, the true reflection of the Lich King of Halls of Reflection, glory to the father, glory to the slowly inevitability of death, glory to the first and true identity of the Frost DK, glory to 2H DK FROST!

[Baator-quelthalas-44165 (Baator)]

It is not a matter of superiority, it is a matter of feeling, if the 2 options can live together I do not care if the DW is still better, i will play 2H, in the same way i no uses Breath of Sindragosa.

and if both can be efficient, happyness for every one!

[Rhamnousia-stormrage]

People, don’t settle for this 2 handed aesthetic nonsense, some people would be happy with having one handers appear as a two hander

Beggers cant be choosers.

But yeah. Ive been playing frost recently for bgs and skirms and i love it (know it gets worse at max/higher rating). I would love to run 2h again and jusf watch chunks of healer hp drop. My only issue with that would be, a dh/dk can already zerg a healer down btwn cc and damage. Feel like making frost more mongo would just get it nerfed again at some point bc while 100k oblits would be super fun. Not to fun for the healer getting back to back 100k oblits and 50k frost strikes into his open mouth.