Blizzard will never admit that Survival rework is a failure

[Brigadester-silvermoon]

@Kaedys-thrall

If that’s how coarse-grained you have to go to make specs “similar”, Trent is absolutely correct in calling you a “extremely dense or a blatant troll”. Like 75% of the DPS specs in the game, melee included, can be described as “spams hard-hitting abilities, fish for procs”. Your inability to comprehend the nuances that makes classes and specs feel different to play doesn’t actually mean they’re all just carbon-copies of each other.

That’s true though isn’t it? Other than the aesthetics most specs in the game are mechanically similar to other specs. There’s not that many new things they can add to the game and it shows they haven’t even tried. If we looked at our brand new covenant ability flayed shot isn’t it a reskinned black arrow? Resonating arrow is an aoe that makes us hit things inside harder that’s not new. Granted we get to ignore LoS that adds a lot to pvp which is cool. Wild spirits is just a resonating arrow clone that hits more harder on a longer cd that doesn’t affect los.

@Kaedys-thrall

Edit: and more to the point, if they are just carbon-copies of each other, why do you care so much about retaining MSV? I mean, it’s basically identical to quite a number of other melee specs, by your exact logic. No reason it should remain in the game, you can get that gameplay from one of the myriad of other melee specs, right?

Edit 2: In fact, Havoc:

Raptor Strike = Chaos Strike (spammed as primary spender)
Kill Command = Demon’s Bite (used regularly to generate resources)
Wildfire Bomb = Blade Dance (short-CD AoE)
Serpent Sting = Immolation Aura (damage-over-time ability used at an intermediate interval)
Harpoon = Fel Rush (movement ability)
Disengage = Vengeful Retreat (movement ability)

Yeah, you’re not wrong however I never argued that MSV was mechanically unique. If they rework msv that would be sweet. I’m telling you guys that RSV was never mechanically unique and you can still get that playstyle.

@Kaedys-thrall

Time for apple-based spaghetti sauce! And salsa!

The fact that Brigade actually expects us to take things like this serious is actually hilarious:

Hehe Love that you guys are having a hard time reading my posts. You are proving my point even further. I’m telling you that mechanically Aimed shot (Current MM) is similar to Explosive shot ( WoD RSV) and you guys are screaming “NOO EXPLOSIVE SHOT GO BOOM AND AIMED SHOT GO PEW.”

@Bepples-barthilas

I’m going to help you out a little since you’ve been embarrassing yourself for over half a thread with this nonsense about Aimed Shot and Explosive Shot. Explosive Shot was actually more interchangeable to Kill Command of BM. They were both instant, 6 second CD attacks that served as the signature spell of those specs.

At least I’m talking about relevance now instead of going on every thread that has the word survival and linking a page from the manual 8 expansions ago.

[Kaedys-thrall (Kaedys)]

@Vitwolfen-nazjatar

Don’t know whether to try to erase this disgusting concept from my mind or try to renegotiate the meaning of spaghettis such that, as long as it has a similar cook time, it’s actually the same as funnel cake, given similar portions of wheat and barley flour… (Idek.)

Spaghetti is a sandwich. =P

[Brigadester-silvermoon]

Good job buddy

[Kaedys-thrall (Kaedys)]

@Brigadester-silvermoon

you guys are screaming “NOO EXPLOSIVE SHOT GO BOOM AND AIMED SHOT GO PEW.”

Speaking of people having trouble reading…

Aimed Shot has a cast time, and a long one at that. Explosive Shot does not, and in fact was regularly cast back-to-back (something we only do with Aimed Shot during the incredibly degenerate Trueshot rotation) via LnL procs.

This reductionist strawmaning does exactly 0 to help your already hilariously flimsy argument, my man.

@Brigadester-silvermoon

Yeah, you’re not wrong however I never argued that MSV was mechanically unique. If they rework msv that would be sweet

Nope. Delete it. It’s the same as Havoc, we don’t need two specs that are the same. I mean, that’s your argument. There’s no distinction between the specs, so we don’t need both, right?

MSV isn’t mechanically unique and you can still get that same playstyle from nearly every other melee, by your logic, so why are you fighting so hard to keep it? Just go play one of the many other MSV clones.

[Lazyguide-area-52 (Lazyguide)]

@Kaedys-thrall

Spaghetti is a sandwich . =P

This is a food crime. I’m going to have to bring up the sandwich alignment chart in my group discord now. Again.

[Brigadester-silvermoon]

@Kaedys-thrall

Aimed Shot has a cast time, and a long one at that. Explosive Shot does not, and in fact was regularly cast back-to-back (something we only do with Aimed Shot during the incredibly degenerate Trueshot rotation) via LnL procs.

It still fills the same function of I’m gonna hit this when its off cd cause it goes brrrrrr

@Kaedys-thrall

Nope. Delete it. It’s the same as Havoc, we don’t need two specs that are the same. I mean, that’s your argument. There’s no distinction between the specs, so we don’t need both, right?

Never said they should have deleted RSV that’s not my argument. I just said you can find similar play styles to RSV elsewhere to everyone saying it was a unique play style. I don’t support deleting classes or specs that’s hater talk. If people prefer the the aesthetic of a shadow priest over an afflic lock thats their choice. If you prefer boomy over elemental awesome! Havoc over survival play it my dude!

If you are only looking for a spec that tanks you have 6 options. A healer, you got 5. You want a dot spec you have a few and if you want a bursty range you have a couple as well. If you want a melee with a lot of mobility theres a couple. This game is mostly aesthetics and a lot of specs are similar to others. If you guys only care about the playstyle and not weather or not your bread and butter ability is called explosive shot you wouldn’t be complaining.

[Vitwolfen-nazjatar (Vitwolfen)]

@Kaedys-thrall

It’s the same as Havoc

Technically, it’s proto-Demon Hunter. You can see this from it having a builder similar to Fracture, to which clearly Chaos’s refund mechanic was originally attached as a CD refresh. Fel Rush was the originally to be called Trammel, whereby one spear-rushes forward and slows all enemies crossed, but it was considered too overpowered and thus given to DH. Vengeful Retreat was originally called Disengage, But Glaring. Luckily they eventually realized Fel Devastation and Fury of the Eagle were too alike, apart from Fury of the Eagle having spec-integral wind-up, and removed the latter.

After all, you can’t have Demon Hunter without first having Hunter, but what’s the point of a Demon Hunter if the normal still had all the goodies?

/s

I’m sorry, but after that link you more than deserved this.

[Kaedys-thrall (Kaedys)]

@Brigadester-silvermoon

It still fills the same function of I’m gonna hit this when its off cd cause it goes brrrrrr

I mean, by that argument, every damage ability in the game fills the same function. You smack the button, damage occurs. Boom, done. Why even have multiple DPS classes, much less specs, when all of them are clearly identical? Slap button, damage happen.

The fact that you don’t perceive how hilariously reductionist your argument is is actually a source of endless amusement.

@Brigadester-silvermoon

You want a dot spec you have a few and if you want a bursty range you have a couple as well.

Wait, how is DoT a distinction now? SV, especially MoP SV (when Serpent Sting had to be manually applied), was a DoT spec. But according to you, a direct-damage hardcast is identical to an instacast DoT ability anyway. Press button, damage happen.

@Brigadester-silvermoon

If you guys only care about the playstyle and not weather or not your bread and butter ability is called explosive shot you wouldn’t be complaining.

/sigh. You’ve just flat out decided that the playstyles are identical, all evidence to the contrary, and are going to keep repeating that point as if mere repetition makes it less hilariously wrong. By your logic, Demo, Affliction, and Destruction all have identical playstyles. Press button, damage happen.

@Vitwolfen-nazjatar

I’m sorry, but after that link you more than deserved this.

[Brigadester-silvermoon]

@Kaedys-thrall

I mean, by that argument, every damage ability in the game fills the same function. You smack the button, damage occurs. Boom, done. Why even have multiple DPS classes, much less specs, when all of them are clearly identical? Slap button, damage happen.

I mean yeah. The only functional difference between spamming an ability off cd and not is

1. You have to pre-cast a different ability or wait for a proc to empower it. (Ice Lance, MoE Earth shock, Pyroblast, Starsurge, howling blast)
2. Said ability has no cooldown and is only used as a filler. (Steady shot, cobra shot, shadowbolt, fireball, incinerate, frostbolt, lightning bolt.)
3. Ability extends the duration or grants you certain buffs and/or dots. (Ferocious Bite, Elemental blast, Roll the bones, raptor strike(with BoP), or Ice Lance (With TV))

@Kaedys-thrall

Wait, how is DoT a distinction now? SV, especially MoP SV (when Serpent Sting had to be manually applied), was a DoT spec. But according to you, a direct-damage hardcast is identical to an instacast DoT ability anyway. Press button, damage happen.

Interpret it how you will, but yeah press button damage happen. Which version of RSV are you fighting for again? Since to you it was a dot spec pre WoD.

@Kaedys-thrall

and are going to keep repeating that point as if mere repetition makes it less hilariously wrong

I’m having fun too bud No one spec in wow is truely unique.

[Lazyguide-area-52 (Lazyguide)]

@Brigadester-silvermoon

It still fills the same function of I’m gonna hit this when its off cd cause it goes brrrrrr

So, I guess to explain from earlier, I apologize for my last post to you. I was admittedly confused and forgotten you had already stated you were not opposed to a 4th spec, so I apologize for that.

That said, I do think people are reading your posts. But I think a lot of them comes across as a bit confusing and (this post in particular) reductionist. I don’t think most hunters agree that the rotations feel similar to what you can get now vs what we had at the time, though I admit I see the similarities you’re making between Flayed Shot and Black Arrow.

I do think how the spec and various abilities interacted with one another versus what you can try to cobble together assuming Venthyr play differently and have a different feeling however. I don’t think that is something that should be written off. While serving the same function (hit button, shooty does damage) having one deal instant physical damage all at once vs another that does damage over time as magic damage feels different to players.

If we accept your argument, the logical conclusion is that most specs feel the same based on hit button, do damage. I think specs are more than the sum of their parts and how various procs, damage types, etc, all come together to make the various specs distinct from one another beyond just thematics.

I hope this makes sense. To me at least, the old spec filled thematic niche with a fun gameplay loop that is now missing from the game. I can try to cobble together something similar but feels off. It isn’t using a major dot on a low CD as it’s main damage source and still has various elements from MM like rapid fire shoved in. I think most people still even reading or posting in the thread feel similarly at any rate.

Ultimately, as you and pretty much everyone here already know, I argue for a 4th spec for multiple reasons. I think we can do better and explore a thematic niche that players are craving while updating it so there is more gameplay depth than the old spec or what we can currently obtain.

[Brigadester-silvermoon]

@Lazyguide-area-52

I hope this makes sense. To me at least, the old spec filled thematic niche with a fun gameplay loop that is now missing from the game. I can try to cobble together something similar but feels off. It isn’t using a major dot on a low CD as it’s main damage source and still has various elements from MM like rapid fire shoved in. I think most people still even reading or posting in the thread feel similarly at any rate.

I understand what you’re saying. This is the closest to an honest response I’ve gotten since I asked my original question.

Some people told me they only want the thematic of hitting explosive shot and black arrow which they have.

Others are claiming they want that specific game play loop. Which is very solidly still in the game.

The feel of being a magic damage type hunter while playing that specific type of dps rotation is not in wow. If they were to add it it would probably be akin to a some sort of elemental ranger(magical archer?) and not called survival. I can guarantee that your short cd major dot if that spec were to have it would not be called explosive shot which seems to be what a lot of people here have a problem with as well.

The term survival just doesn’t fit with magical arrows.

[Brigadester-silvermoon]

Lets go boys! Lets break 400! I want blizzard to see this thread and see what they’re doing to their hunterbros!

[Kaedys-thrall (Kaedys)]

@Brigadester-silvermoon

Some people told me they only want the thematic of hitting explosive shot and black arrow which they have.

Dude, we’ve literally been focusing since square one on the fact that Aimed Shot has a cast time. RSV never had an equivalent to this, especially at the 2.5s cast in BfA/SL. You are the one that keeps insisting it’s a thematic thing, or as you put it, “SV boom boom, MM pew pew”.

That is why we’re referring to your argument as belligerently reductionist. You keep trying to insist that we’re approaching this from a position you see as being invalid, and ignoring the fact that we’re not.

The reason I’m angry about the removal of RSV is not thematic. They actually did a reasonable job, imo, of integrating at least some of RSV’s thematic elements into MM.

The reason I’m angry is because I loved the gameplay loop of RSV. What you paid attention to on each GCD, the conditional checklist you used to evaluate when to cast each ability, the pacing of the ability usage. That very much is not in the game, and frankly the cast time on Aimed Shot is a very large culprit. MM also lacks an ability with a similar mechanism to RSV’s Explosive Shot, ie. a short CD (~6s) instant cast ability with regular resets and occasional blitzes. Aimed Shot doesn’t fulfill that gameplay feel because the cast time makes it feel soooooo sloooooow.

The pace of the rotation is a critical element here. Just because you don’t see a difference between an instant ability and a 2.5s cast ability doesn’t mean others don’t feel a difference between the two, rotationally, nor does it make their perception of that difference invalid. You don’t have to share a feeling about a rotational feel in order for it to be valid.

@Brigadester-silvermoon

The term survival just doesn’t fit with magical arrows.

I mean, I don’t really care about the name of the spec. Or the abilities, for that matter (you’ve literally spent half this thread arguing that an ability having the same name makes it the same ability, regardless of any mechanical considerations). “Survival” is a hella generic name, tbh, and I wouldn’t be opposed to it changing entirely (similar to “Combat” being incredibly generic for rogues, and being changes to “Outlaw”). Ghorak’s Munitions concept would work fine, and frankly captures the rotational feel aspect better than anything in MM has since the Legion apocalypse.

Again, to repeat, this isn’t a question of having a “boom boom” spec. This is a question of having a rotation with a similar pacing, decision tree, and flow to RSV. And that flat out does not exist in MM currently. The closest that still exists in the game is actually probably Elemental, but it’s a bit too caster for my tastes, and they solo like crap.

[Lazyguide-area-52 (Lazyguide)]

@Brigadester-silvermoon

If they were to add it it would probably be akin to a some sort of elemental ranger(magical archer?) and not called survival. I can guarantee that your short cd major dot if that spec were to have it would not be called explosive shot which seems to be what a lot of people here have a problem with as well.

The term survival just doesn’t fit with magical arrows.

So, this is sort of how I saw the old spec as an arcane / elemental archer. An expert at infusing their shots with magic to tear their enemies apart from afar.

I understand that this wasn’t conveyed well with the name survival, and specifically while I think Arcane Archer is more fitting, for my 4th spec I put it as Munitions since that would fit with how specs are named (one word rather than two), and fits more with how other players saw the spec (since I know others viewed it differently than me). I think Munitions covers the elements that players enjoyed about the old spec and has a variety of different avenues that could be explored for varied gameplay / thematics.

I think part of the confusion the devs and some players had before Legion was the name for the spec had become a bit confusing. While long time fans could work out how it still made sense, a common sentiment I’ve seen is some players didn’t understand how survival fit the spec that players came to love. Which of course would require knowledge of the history behind the class as a whole and how the spec evolved over time, but that can be a lot of nuance for players who want easier explanations.

I do think they could use something other than explosive shot if they wanted to, though I don’t see the issue with explosive thematically speaking. To use an example from another game, in D&D’s fifth edition the fighter has a subclass called the Arcane Archer. One of their abilities they can choose to learn is called Bursting Arrow, which is an explosive arrow that detonates at the target. So to me, it isn’t a thematic issue depending on whether the ability is flavored to be magic or not. Obviously, I would prefer if it were as it would help fulfil what I think is missing from the class / the game as a whole, but I digress lol.

[Brigadester-silvermoon]

@Kaedys-thrall

Dude, we’ve literally been focusing since square one on the fact that Aimed Shot has a cast time. RSV never had an equivalent to this, especially at the 2.5s cast in BfA/SL. You are the one that keeps insisting it’s a thematic thing, or as you put it, “SV boom boom, MM pew pew”.

So this is where you mistake my usage of the word “thematic.” You think that the thematic elements of explosive shot involve cast times, ability triggers, and dot applications. I mean thematic by I apply a bomb to my arrow and it goes boom. Current Explosive shot still applies to that theme.

Its just like my apples and tomatos analogy. I’m telling you they’re both fruits and you keep arguing that apples don’t belong in chili.

@Kaedys-thrall

The reason I’m angry is because I loved the gameplay loop of RSV. What you paid attention to on each GCD, the conditional checklist you used to evaluate when to cast each ability, the pacing of the ability usage. That very much is not in the game, and frankly the cast time on Aimed Shot is a very large culprit. MM also lacks an ability with a similar mechanism to RSV’s Explosive Shot, ie. a short CD (~6s) instant cast ability with regular resets and occasional blitzes. Aimed Shot doesn’t fulfill that gameplay feel because the cast time makes it feel soooooo sloooooow.

The play style of rsv is still there. I’m not saying its an exact mirror similar to the style of say a builder spender like elemental shaman and moonkin. Granted you have to cast aimed shot and can’t use it while moving. You still pay attention to the cooldowns and gcds, I’ve seen your parses you know what you are doing you play the trueshot burst windows. You know when to cast arcane shot during that window cause if you don’t its a waste of the gcd we can both agree on that. You also can get a double proc of an empowered arcane shot similar to that blitz of how you could get explosive. When not in those burst windows you’re managing a flow of generating focus and dumping focus and are hoping for a LnL proc.

@Kaedys-thrall

The pace of the rotation is a critical element here. Just because you don’t see a difference between an instant ability and a 2.5s cast ability doesn’t mean others don’t feel a difference between the two, rotationally, nor does it make their perception of that difference invalid. You don’t have to share a feeling about a rotational feel in order for it to be valid.

This does answer what I just said sort of… When you weren’t fishing for procs or hitting your other abilities off of cd you were still hard casting something like cobra shot as rsv were you not? If you’re maximizing your apm you’re either hard casting Cobra shot or steady shot as filler. Its just as current marks that 1.5 sec steady shot on occasion is a 2.5 aimed shot.

@Kaedys-thrall

I mean, I don’t really care about the name of the spec. Or the abilities, for that matter (you’ve literally spent half this thread arguing that an ability having the same name makes it the same ability, regardless of any mechanical considerations). “Survival” is a hella generic name, tbh, and I wouldn’t be opposed to it changing entirely (similar to “Combat” being incredibly generic for rogues, and being changes to “Outlaw”). Ghorak’s Munitions concept would work fine, and frankly captures the rotational feel aspect better than anything in MM has since the Legion apocalypse.

I agree the name of the spec should fit. Thematically survival fits a spear wielding man (or woman) survivalist of nature that grew in the wilds or something. The bombs not so much. But traps and wild animal themed attacks that you learned from your survival in nature heck yeah.

I was arguing that thematically those abilities were the same but people wanted to be aggressive in their responses. Rapid fire was on theme of an ability that makes you shoot fast, explosive shot was a bomb arrow, aspect of the cheetah makes you run fast. Those abilities mechanically changed yes I haven’t argued against it, explosive shot wasn’t a big aoe like it is now.

Mechanically Flayed shot and black arrow are the same however people want to get mad about that.

@Lazyguide-area-52

I do think they could use something other than explosive shot if they wanted to, though I don’t see the issue with explosive thematically speaking. To use an example from another game, in D&D’s fifth edition the fighter has a subclass called the Arcane Archer. One of their abilities they can choose to learn is called Bursting Arrow, which is an explosive arrow that detonates at the target. So to me, it isn’t a thematic issue depending on whether the ability is flavored to be magic or not. Obviously, I would prefer if it were as it would help fulfil what I think is missing from the class / the game as a whole, but I digress lol.

I do agree with this, however it seems some people refuse to allow the function of WoD explosive shot to be called anything other than explosive shot.

[Danski-frostmourne (Danski)]

@Brigadester-silvermoon

The play style of rsv is still there

Are you delusional lmao?

[One-shadow-council]

@Erelir-bleeding-hollow

Survival was just MM with black arrow, explosive shot, and better traps. BM felt like a distinct specialization while MM and surv were just slight variations of one another.

All 3 were pretty much the same. Changing specs was the easiest thing ever. Id literally take 3 abilties off my UI and replace them with 3 more that pretty much worked the same way.

Honestly I dont even think they miss the old survival. The just want the old brainless run and gun playstyle of any of these specs (they all got reworked).

[Taigertraps-darkspear]

@One-shadow-council

Honestly I dont even think they miss the old survival. The just want the old brainless run and gun playstyle of any of these specs (they all got reworked).

“Run and gun”

So… BM?

[Kaedys-thrall (Kaedys)]

@Brigadester-silvermoon

So this is where you mistake my usage of the word “thematic.” You think that the thematic elements of explosive shot involve cast times, ability triggers, and dot applications. I mean thematic by I apply a bomb to my arrow and it goes boom. Current Explosive shot still applies to that theme.

No. I am not mistaking your usage of thematic. You are mistaking the fact that thematic is the core issue here. The theme of SV is much less important to me than the actual gameplay loop was. You are the one insisting this is all about thematic elements.

@Brigadester-silvermoon

The play style of rsv is still there. I’m not saying its an exact mirror

I mean, you’re saying a playstyle “similar to” is still there, by basically reducing the entire concept of the rotation to the point where literally every single ranged DPS in the game is “similar to” RSV. To you, anything that involves casting an ability on CD and watching for procs “plays the same”. It’s intellectually dishonest and you know it.

[Brigadester-silvermoon]

@Danski-frostmourne

Are you delusional lmao?

Try full quoting if you’re gonna talk about delusion.

@Kaedys-thrall

No. I am not mistaking your usage of thematic. You are mistaking the fact that thematic is the core issue here. The theme of SV is much less important to me than the actual gameplay loop was. You are the one insisting this is all about thematic elements.

Idk man I’ve been talking about both thematic and mechanical styles of RSV and have different opinions on both. I even answered this take that you responded to me within the same post. I take it you didn’t read the second half of this post you quoted me on and probably started fuming once you saw my name or something.

@Kaedys-thrall

To you, anything that involves casting an ability on CD and watching for procs “plays the same”.

Well yeah. You don’t agree with this? Mechanically any spec that has that exact playstyle plays the same. Aesthetics may be different but they would play similar to each other.
I’m not trying to be a jerk but have you played anything other than hunter? If you did you would see patterns and play styles in other dps classes. The aesthetics are different but from a pure dps rotation there’s a lot of specs similar to other specs. Builder spenders, Cast A then B, Priority rotations, DoT management, burst windows.